I hope you don't hold your breath waiting, Jake.
I guess they're not as orthodox as they claim:
3. We uphold the four Ecumenical Councils and the three historic Creeds as expressing the rule of faith of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
The orthodox uphold seven Ecumenical Councils.
Apostates!
My favorite phrase: "the authority of the Primates’ Meeting has been undermined ." The authority of the Primates Meeting? What sort of authority do they imagine that it ever had? How weird that these hyper-protestants are so authoritarian when it comes to prelates.
It's a "movement."
Again, it's all about power and sexuality. Hopefully Lambeth will talk about something other than sex.
I bet there's more talk of sex going on in the anglican communion than there is in the Playboy mansion.
The only response I can come with at the moment is:
"WHATEVER!"
What a GAFFE, the Gafcon Communique! First it was posted by SFiF, T1:9, Fulcrum, and then taken down because it hadn't been released officially. Then it was posted again.
Now the Gafcon Anglican Communion is a "confessioinal" church, with a fixed Prayer Book (that of 1662) and the 39 Articles of Religion as a litmus text for Orthodoxy. TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada stand condemned as "apostate" entities expelled from the Communion by purple-shirted thugs and hate-mongers from Africa, who rejoice in maltreating gays and lesbians, claiming no knowledge of hate-crimes occurring in their corrupt and backward countries.
I have never seen such a sick JOKE in all my life! May the good Lord, who died for sinners, have mercy on us.
What they have done in all but name is to declare a new communion. Their lip service to remaining members of the WWAC is the barest of fig leaves covering up the creation of a new communion. They also more or less declared the ABC to be irrelevant (a rare point on which I suspect that most readers here would agree with them). Although I have my quibbles (I am obviously NOT Anglican), this is clearly an open declaration that they no longer belong to what has been for some time a communion of liturgical unitarians.
Bravo and well done to them!
Out of curiosity does anyone know which of the seven ecumenical councils recognized in the age of the undivided church they accept and which the reject? They refer to only four but do not name them.
ICXC NIKA
John
John Henry,
I think the term they used was "Heterodox" not "Apostate." But yea... they pretty much didn't mince words. How refreshing.
ICXC
John
this is clearly an open declaration that they no longer belong to what has been for some time a communion of liturgical unitarians.
Gee whiz, I didn't know unitarians were followers of Christ!
Actually, John, I'd have a lot more respect for the GAFCons if they cited the Gospels more often and evinced a modicum of interest in what Jesus taught and how he lived.
"Although I have my quibbles (I am obviously NOT Anglican..."
Perish the thought.
"...this is clearly an open declaration that they no longer belong to what has been for some time a communion of liturgical unitarians.
Malarkey.
"Out of curiosity does anyone know which of the seven ecumenical councils recognized in the age of the undivided church they accept and which the reject? They refer to only four but do not name them. "
I believe it's the first four.
Does this mean that, under the direction of a bishop, I could go and start Church Planting in Argentina?
Maybe, but first you'd have to find a crooked bishop, Padre Mickey.
A quick take from the Cafe:
Step back from the details of this particular document for a moment, and consider the nature of GAFCON. It has brought together bishops from some of the poorest countries on Earth to deliver the residents of some of the richest suburbs in America from living in a Church to which they cannot dictate terms. Zimbabwe is on fire. Darfur is bleeding. Ethnic strife and pandemic disease rage across the African continent while these bishops devote themselves to rescuing the Episcopalians of Orange County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia from persecution that does not exist. And how will they achieve this? By calling the world to faith in the Gospel as it was delivered to them by representatives of an empire that conquered their homelands, stole their resources and denied their ancestors even the most basic human rights.
One doesn’t know whether to laugh or weep.
"We recognise the ORDERS and jurisdiction of those Anglicans who uphold orthodox faith and practice, and we encourage them to join us in this declaration."
Hey, what's a little DONATISM between friends?
Padre Mickey,
We (Orthodox) would not call them apostates since they were never Orthodox and they have not repudiated the most basic tenants of Christianity. We would and do say they are heterodox. But unlike some of the Anglican Churches which have more or less completely abandoned or made optional the basic tenants of Christianity they have not crossed the line into apostasy.
ICXC NIKA
John
I have been in hospital since Wednesday, so all of this in new to me (well, the announcement of it is new) and I don't have the energy to read all the comments. BUt, As I read Jake's comments, I could only think of one thing to say, "Now, isn't that special" in the best ChurchLady voice I can muster. All of this is like a SNL skit. THe difference being that these apostates belive they are the real christians.
According to other blogs this conference is made up of the leaders who represent the majority of the Anglican Communion. If so, does this mean that the larger portion of the Anglican Communion no longer considers itself 'in communion' with TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada. Did they (can they)actually create a new province of Anglican churches in North America?
Well, Lori4dogs, they can probably do whatever they want to do, but they will NOT be ANglican. I think someone sould tradmark the word and then sue their pants off if they try to use it.
"Ethnic strife and pandemic disease rage across the African continent while these bishops devote themselves to rescuing the Episcopalians of Orange County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia from persecution that does not exist. And how will they achieve this? By calling the world to faith in the Gospel as it was delivered to them by representatives of an empire that conquered their homelands, stole their resources and denied their ancestors even the most basic human rights.
One doesn’t know whether to laugh or weep."
Well put, Mr. Naughton.
The whole history of Africa is a human tragedy.
Jim,
that strikes me as a tad condescending. perhaps they are poor in material fact, in functional government, but rich in a passion to follow Jesus. and just maybe, the wealthy in California are strong in material fact, but weak and suffering spiritually and need Jesus. this can get ugly politically, but can we assume that those at GAFCON are not so stupid as to be cowtowing to their masters?
Jake, how do the 39 Articles exclude Charismatics?
Lori,
They are made up of about six leaders out of 37.
They claim more members, but note that many of those members are Anglican on Sunday morning, and non-denominational Pentecostals Sunday night.
Trooper, I'd be happier if they followed Jesus by making Africa a peaceful, liveable place rather than trying to enforce an intolerant Calvinism on the rest of the Anglican Communion.
Billy D,
One of the Articles, obviously condemning the Latin mass, speaks of the atrocity of speaking in a tongue that cannot be understood by the congretation.
That excludes speaking in tongues in church, something I would think most Charismatics would object to.
John, thanks for coming all the way from Titus 1:9 to set me straight.
I was simply picking on their claiming only four Ecumenical Councils.
So who elected these bishops? Who do they really represent?
I think Jim Naughton hits the nail on the head. What is more, the very affluent white folk putting themselves under African bishops now find they are dealing with absolutist and monarchical models of the Episcopacy that are far older than the United States and largely alien to its culture. The people in parishes like Falls Church are used to being heard and listened to. I'm wondering what will happen when their new African bishop expects their unquestioning and immediate obedience?
"But unlike some of the Anglican Churches which have more or less completely abandoned or made optional the basic tenants of Christianity they have not crossed the line into apostasy."
How much rent to the basic tenants of Christianity pay?
do - PIMF
The basic tenants just want basic cable. The rest always want Showtime, HBO, and pay-per-view.
I thought everybody knew that.
LPR
Peace!
Choosing to restrict my comment to actual text of the GAFCON Statement:
To address BillyD's and Padre Mickey commnents - The statement's reference to the four ecumenical councils (not the first seven) certainly reflects Protestant (and classic Anglican) thought. As Lancelot Andrewes classic formulation states "One canon reduced to writing by God himself, two testaments, three creeds, four general councils, five centuries, and the series of Fathers in that period
—the centuries that is, before Constantine, and two after, determine the boundary of our faith." The councils are Nicaea, 1st Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon.
Pax et Bonum!
Steve
Did you hear that Rent is stopping production?
Oh well...a long run. And now the high schools can start producing it...as long as the right-wing parents in Orange County and Fairfax don't see the script before the curtain goes up.
John, you are mistaken. In his opening address, Akinola stated:
"In the wisdom and strength God supplies we must rescue what is left of the Church from error of the apostates."
Full text here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/...jun/23/
religion
Proud Liturgical Heterodox Unitarian
*titter*
Frankly, when we're talking somewhat current so-called 'rock operas,' I've always been more drawn to "Hedwig and the Angry Inch." But for me to talk about what is and is not 'real' rock music puts me waaaaay outta my league.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-YO9FpWX57E
LPR
"The councils are Nicaea, 1st Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon."
First Nicea, not the Second (which restored icons to the churches and prescribed their veneration.
trooper | 06.28.08 - 8:01 pm |
THey fail in the first test - Jesus said that all will know his followers by how they love one another. These fold exhibit zed love; except for their own super ego.
Counterlight, it will be kicking and screaming. THis is not the final deal; the american neo-Puritans want their OWN communion; the Afican bunch is just one step on that path.
Priscilla,
My original comment was in reference to the communique from GAFCON not the various addresses of the hierarchs.
Yours in ICXC
John
I'm also a big fan of Hedwig, one of my favorites.
" The people in parishes like Falls Church are used to being heard and listened to. I'm wondering what will happen when their new African bishop expects their unquestioning and immediate obedience?"
Me doubts they will get many demands from the "African" Bishops. God knows he's made about one American bishop for every 30 of them. And besides, i still think the Africans are being led about by wealthy, conservative Westerners. But really, what did we expect from this crew? You have a few bankrolled Africans and that mitered baptist Jensen. I just have trouble caring what they say. How sad, a demoniation founded on hate; or should i say, another demonisation founded on hate.
I am still puzzled. Has this conference created a separate communion in which TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada are no longer 'in communion' with these jurisdictions? If so, it seems strange that these people would consider themselves part of a structure that includes TEC and ACC and are willing to meet together at Lambith.
The two largest Lutheran synods in the U.S. have long cooperated with each other in various ministries and outreach. There are HUGE theological differnces between the two and highly unlikely that there will be pulpit and altar fellowship between them anytime soon. However, there is agreement about both having a common mission in Christ. That brings us together in many wonderful ways.
My hope is that if this is in fact the beginning of separate communions that you find ways of sharing common ministries. It seems to me that there has been two separate churches in existence for some time.
That's why Jim Naughton is an actual writer and I'm just a blogger! :)
Bravo!
I'm not sure what your point is, John -- I guess it's my ignorance of orthodoxy and heterodoxy.
Even if you were referring only to today's communique and "The Jerusalem Declaration", you twice stated that the phrase was "heterodox" and not "apostate", once to John Henry and once to Padre Mickey.
Are you saying that Minns made a mistake and used an incorrect phrase when typing up Akinola's opening statement or that Akinola is not orthodox for using the phrase "apostate" into of "heterodox"?
Proud Liturgical Heterodox Unitarian
And I love Hedwig too! I've got the soundtrack on my iPod.
"...that mitered baptist Jensen..."
Mitred? Surely not. Occasionally rocheted and chimered, perhaps, but surely not mitred.
Has this conference created a separate communion in which TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada are no longer 'in communion' with these jurisdictions?
I think they've kicked the Brasilians out, too. They like to pretend that the "other Bishop Robinson (Robinson Cavalcanti)" wasn't deposed. The Donatists (hey, they're heretics, right John "Ad Orientem"?) aren't very fond of the Global Center.
Any bets on what the name of the new North American Province is going to be? The North American Anglican Church? The Church of Nigeria/Uganda/Rwanda/Southern Cone in Apostateland?
Any bets on what the name of the new North American Province is going to be?
The Province of the Most Holy Donatus.
Billy,
Someone suggested the Global Anglican Fellowship (GAF), or the Global Anglican Communion (GAC).
I'm kind of fond of the Global Anglican Synod (GAS), as that pretty well sums up my opinion of this latest pass.
Lori,
This document introduced nothing new. Nothing changes. Everything remains in the same mixed up mess it was yesterday.
We are Anglicans, you see. We excel in fuzziness. To send everyone to their separate rooms would lessen the challenge, and give us fewer headlines. Can't have that.
We'll muddle our way through. And our grandchildren will have new things to fight about. Hopefully, they will be of more theological substance than a debate on gay cooties. Maybe a nice robust debate on the filioque clause?
But, no final resolution on it. Oh no. That will not do. To come to a final conclusion, and so eliminate potential options, is just so un-Anglican.
Ah, yes, they did include some of the South Americans in this little diatribe, didn't they? How inclusive of them to remember our neighbors to the South.
They seem to have forgotten about New Zealand, England, Wales, Scotland and various other places around the world that are attempting to be open to the radically inclusive love of God made known to us through Jesus Christ.
They seem rather fixated on the North Americans. I'm not sure why. Perhaps it is because that is where much of the wealth in the Communion is to be found? Nah, couldn't be for such a crass reason, could it?
Is 'Ad Orientam' with all his mystical know-how (no-how), confusing the word 'tenants' with 'tenets' ?
Serious theologians might quite like to know.
"We urge the Primates’ Council to authenticate and recognise confessing Anglican jurisdictions, clergy and congregations and to encourage all Anglicans to promote the gospel and defend the faith. We recognise the desirability of territorial jurisdiction for provinces and dioceses of the Anglican Communion, except in those areas where churches and leaders are denying the orthodox faith or are preventing its spread, and in a few areas for which overlapping jurisdictions are beneficial for historical or cultural reasons."
The new Donatist CURIA will decide which cleric is in or out. That approach isn't too new. Back in 2002, while I was interviewing for a teaching position in a theological college in the U.K, I was told that my eligibility depended on how my bishop had voted on Lambeth 1998 Resolution 1.10, not upon my academic credentials. Why? Because the CofE didn't want to offend the African bishops, who, even before + Gene Robinson's election, had determined which TEC bishop was in or out, depending on his/her vote at Lambeth 1998.
Well, I hope he meant "tenants." Otherwise, my comment about Rent would be completely out of context.
Wait. I think you're right.
ten·et -
An opinion, doctrine, or principle held as being true by a person or especially by an organization.
Oh, it was about all that doctrine stuff. Two people in a committed relationship who happen to be of the same gender is now a doctrine issue?
I did not know this.
To recall the words of Rosanna,
"Nevermind."
I'm tempted to ditto Susan's comment, "WHATEVER."
Self-styled "orthodox" use their poor understanding of the Gospel to further a questionable, schismatic agenda.
St. John Chrysostom once wrote, ""The desire to rule is the mother of all heresies." It is the mother of schism too, that great sin against love.
These folks need to be shown the door. Politely and with as little animus as possible. But the door nonetheless.
Neither orthodox nor Anglican and therefore nothing to do with the Global Anglican future.
"These folks need to be shown the door. Politely and with as little animus as possible. But the door nonetheless."
Are there mechanisms in place to do this? I mean, short of the unlikely prospect of Archbishop of Canterbury declaring himself to be out of communion with them? Are we stuck with them until they decide they can't take over the whole show and leave on their own?
Regarding Anglicanism's fuzziness, and our aversion to eliminating options, do you recall my favorite "pearly gates' story?
Three clergy, a Roman Catholic priest, a Lutheran pastor and an Anglican priest all died and showed up at the pearly gates. It was Peter's day off, so Jesus was administering the entrance exam.
Jesus said, "Forget all that stuff you learned down there. To get into heaven, you only have to answer one question. Who do you say that I am?"
The Roman Catholic priest confidently stepped forward and said, "The Church teaches..."
Jesus interrupted him. "I didn't ask what the Church teaches. I asked who YOU say that I am."
The Roman Catholic priest scratched his head and said, "I'm not quite sure."
A tap door opened, and off he went to that other place.
Jesus turned to the two remaining clerics, who were now beginning to tremble a bit. "Who will be next?"
The Lutheran pastor hesitantly took a half step forward. "Well, in the bible..."
"Stop!" said Jesus. "That's not what I asked. Who do YOU say that I am?"
The Lutheran pastor stammered, "I...I...I don't really know."
The trap door opened, and off to that other place he went.
Jesus then turned to the Anglican priest. "Well?"
The Anglican replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus smiled, gestured, and the pearly gates began to swing open.
Then the Anglican priest continued,
"...But, on the other hand..."
I have so many questions. What about the TEC people in attendance? Would their participation in all this add up to an 'abandonment of communion?'
Seems to me that this is pretty close to what others have been deposed for.
Well, two bishops, Duncan and Iker, will most likely be deposed anyway, for past actions and future proposed actions.
It won't be a punishment, really...just acknowledging the reality that they have abandoned the Episcopal Church. That will allow a new Bishop to be elected for those Dioceses. Just a paperwork thing, really.
"I have so many questions. What about the TEC people in attendance? Would their participation in all this add up to an 'abandonment of communion?' "
Good question. I wonder if this had anything to do with the plans not to release this report until tomorrow (it was released by a certain far-right blog in error this afternoon)- if they were going to give the TEC bishops some sort of cover before or during the final meeting?
Yes, Iker will probably be deposed but unfortunately it probably won't happen until he has defected to the Southern Cone and left Ft. Worth in shambles. That he plans to attend Lambeth after this fiasco calls into question his motives.
Yes, that he will do much damage to Fort Worth before he leaves is sad. But it is no reason to give up hope.
If our cause is just, God will rebuild from the remnant that remain.
I hope that folks will take this latest development as just another event among many more to come. In the big picture, it will probably prove to be of little significance.
And if I am wrong in that assessment, we might want to recall Romans 8:28 - "All things work for good for those who are called, according to God's purpose."
We may perceive our events as a mix of good times and bad times. The reality is that God is moving through it all, and the movement of God is always from one moment of glory to the next moment of glory.
It's called redemption...because of human depravity and free will, bad things will happen. But God is moving through it all, not necessarily undoing what we perceive as a "bad time," but redeeming it, using it for good.
We trust that God is moving through all these events, from glory, to glory. We are called to move with God, and if we cannot perceive his glory, then we move from faith, to faith.
For all you Rent and Hedwig fans, please allow me to suggest Bare (excerpts only, unfortunately, and not including Plain Jane Fat Ass), but a detailed synopsis is here. I'd refer you to the current production in Maplewood, New Jersey, that two-thirds of my children are teching for, but the final show is just about to close.
/plug
I would like to say that I don't "recognize" this renewed attempt at a "communion within a communion" (an absurdity if I ever heard one), but I do. It's called "popular american religion" - couched in the most poetic terms available to GAFCON (why in heaven's name did we all send our out-of-date, euro-centrically biased and no longer useful libraries to the developing countries in the '50s and '60s? Can't we ever just throw something away when it has outlived its usefulness? I.e., those things that are even useless to TEC thrift shoppes?). Phyllis Chesler wrote about and illustrated the matter eloquently in a mid-70s book called, "About Men." This religion's latest most powerful and failed adherent (also for political and financial reasons) was GW.
Uh oh (s),
What are we to do?
I'm currently Catholic, but I would like to become Anglican. However, there is no way I can become Episcopalian because our local pastor says that there are multiple ways to God and that contradicts with my common sense reading of the bible.
I'm assuming many of the conservatives have similar issues. You keep saying that it is the Gay/Lesbian issue - no, it is the core belief of scriptures.
JefferyR,
In this case you may be correct, but only in part. That's where the "big tent" or "wild garden" comes into play. A friend of mine, who is a Desciple of Christ, put it best, "Doesn't it seem arrogant to say that there is only one way to view God for 5 billion+ people?" It may not be that there is more than one way to God, just more than one way to walk that path. Some prefer to walk, some run, some crawl, while others ride bicycles. Now cyclists are not runners, who are not walkers, who are not crawlers, but all are on that same path.
In the case of this latest meeting of neocons in Jerusalem, they say it is about scripture, and maybe it is. They want to follow the letter of the law saying "no women ordinations", and "no gays alowed", since it's in the Bible. It's an excuse for exclusion.
I'm also a big fan of Hedwig, one of my favorites.
Counterlight | Homepage | 06.28.08 - 8:42 pm | #
Ditto, too bad she got killed off in Book 7!! LOL!
Jim,
We must weep. It is a bunch of old men trying to maintain there relevance.
We must cry for the children that are starving and are being ingnored by these bishops. We must cry for the women who are raped and killed in Darfur and the Congo while these bishops worry about churches in Dale City, VA. We must weep for the children in Uganda who are pressed into wars at the age of 6 and 7 to kill others while these bishops gather thier flock in Forth Worth, TX. We must weep for the thousands in Argentina that have disappeared while these bishops plunder Fresno, CA. Weep for all the disenfranchised who will remain so for a longer time due to the purple-shirted thugs who love to hate.
So, in all of this, where is the mercy? Does no one in this group understand mercy? Why is mercy not mentioned? Why is mercy not practiced? Where is the mercy that God has so generously provided to them? I weep because there is no mercy.
Jeffery, just remain Roman Catholic. If I'm right, we can laugh about this in heaven. If you are, you can laugh at me in hell.
Yet another stealth Unitarian here.
LPR
There's a lot of wisdom in this thread. Jim Naughton's global perspective is quite a wake-up call. Susan Russell's "whatever" sounds like sanity to me. Bill Carroll's St. John Chrysostom quote, "The desire to rule is the mother of all heresies" and his commentary, "It is the mother of schism too, that great sin against love." pretty much says it, and one can only hope our reasserter brethren are paying attention. If they don't get it, then perhaps it is time to politely show them the door. If they want to live like that, then let them, but they have no right to stop the movement of the Spirit amongst Christians. (And yes, we know it threatens their self-importance.)
And our grandchildren will have new things to fight about.
True, but think of how we're fine-tuning it down to, hopefully, minutia. We've pretty much eliminated race and gender, and now we're taking care of orientation. The bigots of our grandchildren's generation will have to split hairs to claim "superiority" over their fellow human beings. They may risk looking ridiculous. Jake, I love the spirit of your 06.28.08 - 10:00 pm comment.
James, you grow on a person, ya know? Please take good care of your health. Prayers for this.
Thanks, fs. Was procrastinating. Trying to finish a sermon. Tough set of lessons tomorrow. I wish I could preach the message of redemption instead of what the texts call for.
Well, I did actually work a bit of redemption in there. Usually do. It's one of my themes.
Actually, maybe the theme. Someone once said that every preacher has only one sermon, and every sermon is just another variation of the same message. I think there may be some truth to that.
Well, I don't _think_ I'm a liturgical Unitarian, but I am a universalist, albeit one who thinks the salvation of all persons (and, indeed, of the whole creation, fallen angels perhaps being excepted) is accomplished through, and only through, the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ--which is to say, independently of whether persons in fact believe correctly or not. But that's just me (well, me and Karl Barth in his more completely logically consistent moments). What I find curious is that the opinions about many ways of salvation which TEC is being accused of holding seem to be the self-same ones which last week's poll results reveal to be held by a plurality of Americans of every religious stripe--RC's, Baptists, Jews und so weiter...if religious organizations are to be judged on the theological positions of their members, it would seem to be the case that all religion in America is apostate or heretical, as the case may be.
The way I see this, it is not about "sex"; it is not about orthodoxy; it is purely about power! Who is going to run the show.
I’m never been keen on people who drop scriptural references into arguments (usually without quoting the text, as it happens). It’s not been a general way of making points in either my CofE or SEC experience. And we have a fine example of why it can be suspect in the first para of this statement re the Great Commission and “build[ing] up the church on the foundation of biblical truth (Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 2:20)."
As people here will know, Ephesians doesn’t refer to “biblical truth” but to “the apostles and prophets, Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone”. Which is somewhat different. I think that’s a pretty good example of how these people show their fidelity to the text!. They're not quoting Scripture - they're telling us what it means. And why haven’t they worked out that it was the Church that defined the canon of scripture, not the scripture that defined the Church; or that the early Church had no “Scripture” as we now know it (and had some texts that didn’t get into the final canon)?
And am I the only one who sees their use of "Jesus" as a rhetorical device rather than a reference to a living teacher?
But I think their use of “confessing” church is interesting. The only precedent I can think of is the anti-Nazi Christians who opposed the “German Christians” in the German reformed churches. And their “Fellowship” rhetoric suggests, alas, more of the same to come. Lambeth (and any response to this statement from +++Rowan, given what it says about Cantuar) could indeed be very interesting. Now the knives are out… (I continue to think that the majority here are under-estimating the ABC. He certainly seems to have alienated the theologically illitarate "we don't do nuance" Calvinists of GAFCon - perhaps not accidentally...)
Someone once said that every preacher has only one sermon, and every sermon is just another variation of the same message.
Well, then, perhaps the call is to sing that particular note in his choir. To do it, and do it well, sounds like happiness, even fulfillment, to me.
Well, sometimes it's more interesting to come in after a lot of comments.
I guess what comes about the statement to mind is the usual spectrum of pick-a-century on the definition of heresy.
Jim, you did call it like we see it in most of Fairfax County. I would like to note that places like Truro and its mission churches were not a refuge for traditional Virginia Episcopalians. This is just an observation over about 14 years, and I do see things in the eyes of someone born, raised and educated in Montgomery County, Maryland. The native Fairfax County/Washingtonians and native Montgomery County/Washingtonians (of the many natives who don't exist, LOL) aren't that different. I think the transient populations are a bit more divided in thought when you cross the Potomac. Transient probably means anyone who came here as an adult, BTW, a hometown prerogative from a native daughter of a native daughter - adults get to chose where they live in the area.
I will be leaving now. But, to borrow a phrase from years gone by -- (You 60's types should remember this one):
GAFCON is not
healthy for children
and other living things.
I liked Susan's "Whatever." I just can't take them seriously. Buffoons. I go away after each reading with Gilbert & Sullivan librettos running through my head.
Jake, look up and see what the lessons for tomorrow are from the 1662 book. :)
JefferyR,
In all kindness, I think you have some serious church (and soul) searching to do. I say this as a person raised Episcopalian - but with good a couple friends who are practicing Catholics, one who left it a year ago, and one who has pulled out the silver bullets and garlic since adulthood just at the mention of anything about Rome.
I might add that these days if you say you want to become an "Anglican" it often means heading far into Pentacostal-type Protestantism. And being an "Episcopalian" can mean any number of taditions, some of them almost regional.
I always tell people thining of TEC as a fast move from the Roman way - go slowly, read up on our history, and make sure you go to one of the 2-3 month adult classes for potential adult confirmands/seekers/etc. Thre's a lot to learn. Many RCs are raised to believe we are essentially "catholic without the Pope," and that only describes a certain percentage of Episcopalians. Don't just be drawn to to our beautiful liturgy, perhaps.
Every choice of a faith community has its compromises, so find out which ones you want to make. As noted by our RudigerVT, you might feel most comfortable staying with the Roman way. Peace.
It would be a lie for me to say I have no strong feelings about this.
I do believe the new communion (how I see it) errr the fellowship (how they see it) are one in the same: read new communion (for now within a communion).
Maybe I an wholly wrong here, but I don't know how one can divide anything by zero. Maybe I'm not up on my math.
In reality, though, the fact is they are unable to get enough support to walk away at this time.
A good thing, in a way, and a troubling thing, in another.
In no way do I want to be associated with those that violate human rights. I am associated, though, because they don't have the strength to leave, and we don't have the strength to require their leaving.
What a pitiful state and what an awful position some of us find ourselves in. I personally am horrified to find myself constantly in flux with a potential killer who can barely utter a cogent response to press (even a hateful one, let alone one that is consistent with the last one or a true one).
They cannot leave the communion, because, if they do... they have NO press. Once they're gone, they're history. As long as they hang around like bats, they will fly out, munch, and return to the safety of the communion while leaving a pile of guano.
I guess, having had a family of bats at a former house, the guano is useful and there is a lot to be done with it. Rather not have to deal with it, though.
The difference is, I actually like bats.
Padre Mickey wrote: “The orthodox uphold seven Ecumenical Councils.”
and “Ad Orientem” asked which of the 7 this corresponds to.
The number of Ecumenical Councils is a give-away. The 4 are a Classic Calvinist ploy from the Academia Juliana at Helmstedt 1577.
Duke Heinrich Julius of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttle used Theology as an instrument of foreign policy contra Lutheran Wittenberg.
The claim was that Wittenberg was “official” (= Elector of Saxony ; = ) Heinrich Julius and his Academics pretended that Helmstedt’s positions were “neutral” = the plain “truth” (favourite Indo European Idea), but followed 3rd and 4th century Platonist/Gnosticist theologians contra Ireneus and Co…
The pretended non-“official” Duke was Rector of the University of Helmstedt at the tender age of 12, and later Administrator of the Dioceses of Halberstadt and Minden, Secret Councillor of Roman Catholic Emperor Rudolf II at Prague and a burner or 114 witches.
Slightly more pleasant was his love for Theater and Musicke (composer Michael Pretorius).
Some 18 or 20 generations ago Heinrich-Julius was the great–nephew of an aunt (also 2nd cousin).
In 1591 he exiled the Jews.
Loge, "confessing church" is also one of the code names for the IRD/Dominionist movement.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Con...essing_Movement
"The Confessing Movement is an Evangelical movement within several American mainline Protestant denominations to return those churches to what the members of the movement see as theological orthodoxy. . . . Of particular concern to those in the Confessing movement has been a perceived lack of concern for, or non-evangelical approaches to, evangelism, to the deity of Christ, to questions of sexuality and homosexuality in particular."
I believe we had a protracted discussion on another thread over these very same issues quite recently, LOL.
So the "fellowship of confessing Anglicans" is a dogwhistle to those in that particular movement, I would guess, and probably the wording was put there by Minns, et al.
Is there a connection between the Karl Barth Nazi "Confessing Church" and the IRD's "confessing church" movement in America? i would only say that the people who started this movement are very educated, very politically savvy, and not prone to making giant errors of this nature without cause.
Pax
I'm very sorry -- that should say "Karl Barth's ANTI-Nazi church" above.
Anyway, the implication is that we are not only apostate, heretics, and heterdox, but akin to Nazis, I guess.
Godwin's Law indeed.
Pax
Scene: The Last Supper.
Participants: Jesus and his 'chosen.'
Setting: Upper Room. One big table. One tiny table.
Dramatic Action: In the middle of the meal, Jesus asks Peter, James, and John to join him at the little table.
Disputed Action: There he blesses bread and wine and distributes it only at the little table?
Not sure how this ends.... But it's a "communion within a communion."
The 'chosen' versus the self chosen?
Somehow I missed this part of the Bible.
Or did Jesus make everybody move over at the end of the big table and move his little group just to one side, so it would be more obvious when they communed all by themselves?
It's all so confusing. And none of it in the bible!
I still think the whole thing will collapse into civil war. The Anglo-Catholics (like +Iker and xSchofield) are left out in the lurch with this document. The issue of women's ordination (++Orombi does, ++Jensen doesn't) remains unresolved. The authority of the Bible, claimed to be the central issue for these folks, may well emerge as a contentious issue for them. Among them are many literalists, and many who read the Bible not-so-literally.
Adding to this combustible brew is a certain character feature that they all seem to share. Liberals can be as greedy and ambitious for power as anyone else in the world, but, there is a certain "live and let live" outlook that is willing to allow and accommodate dissension and variation.
All of these people in the GAFCON group are very much "my way or the highway!" types that expect obedience and conformity with no back talk.
So, while they are building their redoubts against the world and against each other, I wish everyone
HAPPY GAY DAY!!!!
I once asked Canon to the Ordinary for x-JDS a question about the resolution of certain issues within the diocese. Would this split resolve the issues of women priests, LGBT, Book of Common Prayer, etc. His response was telling. Gandenberger said No, it does not, that those issues would have to be dealt with at another time. I must agree with others here, the glue used to hold this "august" body known as GAFCON together is pretty thin and not very adhesive. So, the question for our leadership remains the same -- Why keep this group around? Packer is calling for the ABC to step down. GAFCON says he is old and tired and irrelevant. GAFCON says they do not need the ABC. So, why not just let them go? Suddenly there would be no one to pick on. The glue would unbond in one big hurry because now they would have to figure out who is following the 39 Articles of Faith and who is not? This group will turn on itself. The other issue no one is talking about, IMHO, is the need for ex-TEC'ers to remain Anglican. All the parishes that left EDoSJ left so they could be orthodox BUT still be Anglican. Why not take that away so that the choice becomes one of in or out. Nothing in between. Nothing to salve the conscience of those who really think they are "helping us to find our true bible thumping selves".
Bible: Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors.
I don't recall, in the feeding of the 5000 (or the 4000) that there was a separate line for gay people or women or sinners and tax collectors. Or maybe I missed that part.
Counterlight, you are correct. Once they have vanquished the evil gays from their cult they will start eating their own. People/groups such as this exist only to fight; when the fight is over, there is nothing to keep them united. Once that happens, the fight for top dog will be a continual activity. The problem is they have done all the spiritual damage they can do before they start eating their own. I mean, show me a solemn high mass using the 1662 book. That just does not work very well.
I have come to the most amazing conclusion. Fundamentalists do not approve of Episcopalians. So, nothing has really changed since I was baptized in the 1950s. Must look at the big picture!
"We thank God for the courageous actions of those Primates and provinces who have offered orthodox oversight to churches under false leadership, especially in North and South America."
I...see. If the leadership is ordained and consecrated in accordance with the Canons and the local polity, but doesn't agree with the GAFcon rightwingnuts, then it's a "false leadership." But the schismatics who scatter the flocks and steal the sheep are "courageous."
"We recognise the desirability of territorial jurisdiction for provinces and dioceses of the Anglican Communion, except in those areas where churches and leaders are denying the orthodox faith or are preventing its spread, and in a few areas for which overlapping jurisdictions are beneficial for historical or cultural reasons."
Riiiight. Local jurisdiction is good, except when the GAFconistas might profit from ignoring it. And what possible "historical or cultural reasons" justify financial rape and congregational pillage?
Amazing drivel, all of it. How can anyone write this stuff, publish it with straight faces, and expect it to be taken seriously as anything but a statement of harmful intent? Which the writers may or may not even be able to carry out?
Feh. I'm going to church and do something right and useful.
Lynn,
I certainly agree with that. In fact i do not think one can find two fundamentalists that can agree o nthe time of day. That being said, How di they get inside TEC? I figure growth at any price and guess what, it's time to pay up for the growth.
How do they plan to "authenticate and recognise" those who meet their criteria for acceptance? Will marks on the forehead be required?
Fred
Gafcon are not threatening to leave. They are threatening to stay and reform the communion.
TEC cannot kick them out. An alternative province in North America, recognised by Gafcon is coming. It won't be recognised by canterbury, but it will be recognised by most of the communion. I can't see that TEC can do much about that.
Dorothy,
no just the 14 marks (of faith) set out in the Jerusalem declaration.
Obadiahslope -
I understand that. I did not say that TEC should kick them out. GAFCON has clearly stated that they do not need/want the ABC. IMHO, one cannot use or abuse the name of Anglican without the ABC. Anglican = Church of England Anglican /= GAFCON. They haveremoved themselves from the Anglcian Church, we, the Anglcian communion need to make it official.
Ob; since "most of the communion" was not in Jerusalem this past week as the baptists had their meeting, they did not speak for "most of the communion." Sometimes your posts are bloody tiresome as the posts continue to spout the same old cultish line of "say if often enough and it will come true." The GAFCON folks might buy some ruby red slippers to click (of course there are many of their own bishops who have these in their closets now).
James,
The maths is simple. Add up the number of anglicans represented by the primates in jerusalem, and you get more than half the communion.
Of course the numbers do not mean the Gafconites were right, simply that a lot of the communion had a stake in what has taken place.
Obadiahslope:
Just so you have advance warning today. I have had my diocese stolen by a marauding bishop from Fresno in cahoots (that is an old west term, hint, hint) with a purple-shirted thug from So. America. Now, I have a bunch more purple-shirted thugs threatening to steal/kill my church as an institution. Please note, and I mean this in the kindest way possible, stay away. You will not like the answers you get today and they will not be either well-thought out or coated with politic.
Fred,
having had someone threaten to punch my lights out on this forum recently I realise that restraint in language is not something that i can rely on here. But have no wish to provoke you - and i respect the fact that you have strong feelings on these issues.
So let me wish you goodnight, it is nearly 1am here.
Obadiah, Fred is right. It's not a good day to be bringing out all the things you always say. No gunfight at the OK Corral, please (another old West reference).
It's Sunday. The Lord's day.
Fred, and everybody else, the canon rule of blogging is not to feed trolls. If they do not find sustenance, they go elsewhere.
Today, and especially on this thread, please ignore any and all trolls.
A gracious good morning to you my dear Lynn!
It's well and truely Monday, Lynn. But I take your point.
Good point, David. And also, all, remember: saying won't make it so. There is a sort of magic-incantation quality to all this. They appear to think that if they say stupid things, over and over they will suddenly make sense and come to pass.
As if.
LPR
Seven whole days, not one in seven,
I will praise thee;
in my heart, though not in heaven,
I can raise thee.
Small it is, in this poor sort
to enroll thee:
e’en eternity’s too short
to extol thee.
George Herbert, 1633
I will be interested to see how Canterbury responds to this declaration. Up to now, ++Rowan has bent over backwards to accommodate the GAFCONites and has worked diligently to try to appease them. Now that they have told him to take a hike things may change. I doubt much will happen until Lambeth anyway and maybe not even then.
When the new North American province is created, whether under the leadership of Duncan or Venables (and I bet that's going to be a battle royale) how will TEC, ACoC, and the AC respond? If they are not recognized by Canterbury as being in communion then that will create a host of legal issues regarding property disputes, etc. This is going to be a long and dirty fight. By the way, Ruth Gledhill reports in The Sunday Times reports that the name of this "new province" will be called "The Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans." Indeed.
I will side with Jake on this one and trust that God is working through this process and all will work to the good eventually. But I think our faith will be sorely tested over the coming months and years.
Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Obadiah wrote:
---
The maths is simple. Add up the number of anglicans represented by the primates in jerusalem, and you get more than half the communion.
---
But the implication that ALL of these people agree with their bishops on ALL matters related to Christian doctrine is absurd, Obadiah.
Good morning, däˈvēd. Thank you for sending some sunshine my way. Nervously preparing for a brunch date. Perhaps this wasn't the best place to visit while letting my hair start to dry, LOL.
Please note that I understand all -- and my post was not to suggest anything other than a VERBAL onslaught that would be "uncharacteristic" of me. I do not wish to be uncharitable but today is just not a good day for me. I will continue to observe all of Jake's rules.
It is difficult to not feel deep resentment for a group of people who bring in their fundamentalist/Calvinistic crap and then foist it on everyone else telling us that "we are poor dear misguided souls that need their help to get straight." I have heard that s**t from x-JDS till it bubbled over and got all over my shoes. I just got them clean and I am not about to have them soiled again by a bunch of thugs.
Obadiah you must be patient... TEC has had a very bad week and they do not take setbacks lightly. First, of their Bishops in one of the largest dioceses was (finally!) found guilty of harboring his little brother who was unashamedly sexually abusing a young girl The worst part of that story is that other Bishops were aware of the issue and said/did nothing about it and ordained the little brother. They passed on the problem, which eventually got him to a Bishops chair. The entire church structure ought to be ashamed of this one. Then the Va. Courts ruled in favor of the 11 Anglican churches in the famous dispute about property. Not a winner yet, but not good news for TEC. then to cap it off, GAFCON comes along and does not leave, but promises to stay inside the Anglican communion. How disappointing that is for some. As each day goes by, it becomes more and more obvious that the storied, beloved Episcopal Church will be forced to deal with reality. No, it is not "just a few" churches that are in crisis. It is the whole brand. There is jusst one thing left to do. Pray, brothers and sisters, That is what I am on the way to do now. Nothing else seems to make sanse right now.
Fred, then there's this.
When we let ourselves get provoked by the opponents of full inclusion, they have won. Not in a big way. But in a small way.
What's more, we're participating in their cruelty. I dare say it's a form of enabling and encouraging sadism.
True, some of these people put on a nice facade. But they also get off on our suffering. Ick.
LPR
TEC has had a very bad week and they do not take setbacks lightly.
They. They?
Odd statement from one of "us."
LPR
That is just it LPR, it is not really one of you.
As the last little while has shown, the trolls could well be out in force today. Perhaps they smell blood.
I had folded my tent, but Rudiger raises an important point withwhich i would like to engage. I do not see how the Jerusalem declaration causes "you" (TEC loyalists) to suffer. One progressive blogger who often has helpful comments, BLS, welcomed the opportunity it affords TEC to proclaim itself as an inclusive church. (I hope I have been fair to her thinking).
It may be that separating conservative from progressive anglicans may give each of them a chance for a clear message in the North American scene.
Lord, give me patience and give it to me right now!
Agreed, Obadiah. And as soon as TEC's committed malcontents do the right thing -- leave -- it will clear things up a lot. However, please stop asserting that the distinction is conservative v. progressive. This belies a from-afar misapprehension of the reality in the USA. It's not that simple.
Then again, it's probably my own n-of-one extrapolation, as I assume that most self-identified conservatives in TEC are more like my mother than, well, like you.
LPR
Rudiger,
a fair point about language. It is a pity that there is no agree-ed upon set of terms for us to use. Goodnight.
Lynn about those pies, does any of this make sense?
Eight Tips for Successful Fruit Pies
by Rose Levy Beranbaum
Plan Ahead
Letting the dough rest is an important part of the pie-making process, and it also allows you to divide the work over several days if you wish. After making the dough, shape it into a disk and refrigerate it for at least 45 minutes or up to two days. (You could also freeze it for up to three months; let it defrost in the fridge before proceeding.) Next, roll out the dough, transfer it to the pan, and refrigerate it for at least 30 minutes. (If you're making a single-crust pie, you can refrigerate it overnight again at this point.) Fill the pie. If you're using a top crust, add it and refrigerate for one hour more. Then bake. All this refrigeration allows the gluten in the flour to relax, resulting in a more tender crust, and it also prevents distortion during baking.
Choose the Right Pan
For the crispest crust, use pans that are either dark heavy metal, ceramic, or ovenproof glass—avoid lighter metal pans, as they don't conduct heat as well.
Heat Things Up
To ensure proper cooking, be sure to preheat the oven for at least 20 minutes before baking.
Keep It Crisp
For a crisp bottom crust, place the pie directly on the floor of the oven for the first 30 minutes of baking. Or preheat a pizza stone on the bottom rack and place the pie on that. Be sure to move the pie up after 30 minutes, though, or you might burn the bottom.
Know When It's Done
Don't take the pie out until its juices are bubbling thickly all over, including the center. This will ensure that the cornstarch has fully absorbed liquid and thickened the filling. To cook the filling fully, you'll probably need to cover the edges of the crust to prevent overbrowning. To do this, either tent several pieces of foil around the rim or use specially made foil pie shields. Single-crust pies need to have their edges covered after the first 15 minutes of baking; double-crust pies after 30 minutes.
If Necessary, Create a Shield
While waiting for the filling of a double-crust pie to cook, you may find that the top of the crust is browning too much as well. If this happens, tent it with foil, but be sure to make a steam hole in the center for moisture to escape so the crust stays crisp.
Cool Completely
To ensure that the filling is set and will not run, allow the pie to cool on a rack to room temperature or just barely warm before slicing. This will take between two and four hours, depending on its thickness.
Grease It Up
To make cutting easier, grease and flour the pan before lining it with the pastry. Once the pie has cooled completely, this should make it possible to slide it out of the pan before cutting it. You'll avoid damaging your knife or pan during slicing, and the flour will give a pleasant, slightly rough texture to the bottom crust.