I hope you don't hold your breath waiting, Jake.
I guess they're not as orthodox as they claim:
3. We uphold the four Ecumenical Councils and the three historic Creeds as expressing the rule of faith of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
The orthodox uphold seven Ecumenical Councils.
Apostates!
My favorite phrase: "the authority of the Primates’ Meeting has been undermined ." The authority of the Primates Meeting? What sort of authority do they imagine that it ever had? How weird that these hyper-protestants are so authoritarian when it comes to prelates.
It's a "movement."
Again, it's all about power and sexuality. Hopefully Lambeth will talk about something other than sex.
I bet there's more talk of sex going on in the anglican communion than there is in the Playboy mansion.
The only response I can come with at the moment is:
"WHATEVER!"
What a GAFFE, the Gafcon Communique! First it was posted by SFiF, T1:9, Fulcrum, and then taken down because it hadn't been released officially. Then it was posted again.
Now the Gafcon Anglican Communion is a "confessioinal" church, with a fixed Prayer Book (that of 1662) and the 39 Articles of Religion as a litmus text for Orthodoxy. TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada stand condemned as "apostate" entities expelled from the Communion by purple-shirted thugs and hate-mongers from Africa, who rejoice in maltreating gays and lesbians, claiming no knowledge of hate-crimes occurring in their corrupt and backward countries.
I have never seen such a sick JOKE in all my life! May the good Lord, who died for sinners, have mercy on us.
What they have done in all but name is to declare a new communion. Their lip service to remaining members of the WWAC is the barest of fig leaves covering up the creation of a new communion. They also more or less declared the ABC to be irrelevant (a rare point on which I suspect that most readers here would agree with them). Although I have my quibbles (I am obviously NOT Anglican), this is clearly an open declaration that they no longer belong to what has been for some time a communion of liturgical unitarians.
Bravo and well done to them!
Out of curiosity does anyone know which of the seven ecumenical councils recognized in the age of the undivided church they accept and which the reject? They refer to only four but do not name them.
ICXC NIKA
John
John Henry,
I think the term they used was "Heterodox" not "Apostate." But yea... they pretty much didn't mince words. How refreshing.
ICXC
John
this is clearly an open declaration that they no longer belong to what has been for some time a communion of liturgical unitarians.
Gee whiz, I didn't know unitarians were followers of Christ!
Actually, John, I'd have a lot more respect for the GAFCons if they cited the Gospels more often and evinced a modicum of interest in what Jesus taught and how he lived.
"Although I have my quibbles (I am obviously NOT Anglican..."
Perish the thought.
"...this is clearly an open declaration that they no longer belong to what has been for some time a communion of liturgical unitarians.
Malarkey.
"Out of curiosity does anyone know which of the seven ecumenical councils recognized in the age of the undivided church they accept and which the reject? They refer to only four but do not name them. "
I believe it's the first four.
Does this mean that, under the direction of a bishop, I could go and start Church Planting in Argentina?
Maybe, but first you'd have to find a crooked bishop, Padre Mickey.
A quick take from the Cafe:
Step back from the details of this particular document for a moment, and consider the nature of GAFCON. It has brought together bishops from some of the poorest countries on Earth to deliver the residents of some of the richest suburbs in America from living in a Church to which they cannot dictate terms. Zimbabwe is on fire. Darfur is bleeding. Ethnic strife and pandemic disease rage across the African continent while these bishops devote themselves to rescuing the Episcopalians of Orange County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia from persecution that does not exist. And how will they achieve this? By calling the world to faith in the Gospel as it was delivered to them by representatives of an empire that conquered their homelands, stole their resources and denied their ancestors even the most basic human rights.
One doesn’t know whether to laugh or weep.
"We recognise the ORDERS and jurisdiction of those Anglicans who uphold orthodox faith and practice, and we encourage them to join us in this declaration."
Hey, what's a little DONATISM between friends?
Padre Mickey,
We (Orthodox) would not call them apostates since they were never Orthodox and they have not repudiated the most basic tenants of Christianity. We would and do say they are heterodox. But unlike some of the Anglican Churches which have more or less completely abandoned or made optional the basic tenants of Christianity they have not crossed the line into apostasy.
ICXC NIKA
John
I have been in hospital since Wednesday, so all of this in new to me (well, the announcement of it is new) and I don't have the energy to read all the comments. BUt, As I read Jake's comments, I could only think of one thing to say, "Now, isn't that special" in the best ChurchLady voice I can muster. All of this is like a SNL skit. THe difference being that these apostates belive they are the real christians.
According to other blogs this conference is made up of the leaders who represent the majority of the Anglican Communion. If so, does this mean that the larger portion of the Anglican Communion no longer considers itself 'in communion' with TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada. Did they (can they)actually create a new province of Anglican churches in North America?
Well, Lori4dogs, they can probably do whatever they want to do, but they will NOT be ANglican. I think someone sould tradmark the word and then sue their pants off if they try to use it.
"Ethnic strife and pandemic disease rage across the African continent while these bishops devote themselves to rescuing the Episcopalians of Orange County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia from persecution that does not exist. And how will they achieve this? By calling the world to faith in the Gospel as it was delivered to them by representatives of an empire that conquered their homelands, stole their resources and denied their ancestors even the most basic human rights.
One doesn’t know whether to laugh or weep."
Well put, Mr. Naughton.
The whole history of Africa is a human tragedy.
Jim,
that strikes me as a tad condescending. perhaps they are poor in material fact, in functional government, but rich in a passion to follow Jesus. and just maybe, the wealthy in California are strong in material fact, but weak and suffering spiritually and need Jesus. this can get ugly politically, but can we assume that those at GAFCON are not so stupid as to be cowtowing to their masters?
Jake, how do the 39 Articles exclude Charismatics?
Lori,
They are made up of about six leaders out of 37.
They claim more members, but note that many of those members are Anglican on Sunday morning, and non-denominational Pentecostals Sunday night.
Trooper, I'd be happier if they followed Jesus by making Africa a peaceful, liveable place rather than trying to enforce an intolerant Calvinism on the rest of the Anglican Communion.
Billy D,
One of the Articles, obviously condemning the Latin mass, speaks of the atrocity of speaking in a tongue that cannot be understood by the congretation.
That excludes speaking in tongues in church, something I would think most Charismatics would object to.
John, thanks for coming all the way from Titus 1:9 to set me straight.
I was simply picking on their claiming only four Ecumenical Councils.
So who elected these bishops? Who do they really represent?
I think Jim Naughton hits the nail on the head. What is more, the very affluent white folk putting themselves under African bishops now find they are dealing with absolutist and monarchical models of the Episcopacy that are far older than the United States and largely alien to its culture. The people in parishes like Falls Church are used to being heard and listened to. I'm wondering what will happen when their new African bishop expects their unquestioning and immediate obedience?
"But unlike some of the Anglican Churches which have more or less completely abandoned or made optional the basic tenants of Christianity they have not crossed the line into apostasy."
How much rent to the basic tenants of Christianity pay?
do - PIMF
The basic tenants just want basic cable. The rest always want Showtime, HBO, and pay-per-view.
I thought everybody knew that.
LPR
Peace!
Choosing to restrict my comment to actual text of the GAFCON Statement:
To address BillyD's and Padre Mickey commnents - The statement's reference to the four ecumenical councils (not the first seven) certainly reflects Protestant (and classic Anglican) thought. As Lancelot Andrewes classic formulation states "One canon reduced to writing by God himself, two testaments, three creeds, four general councils, five centuries, and the series of Fathers in that period
—the centuries that is, before Constantine, and two after, determine the boundary of our faith." The councils are Nicaea, 1st Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon.
Pax et Bonum!
Steve
Did you hear that Rent is stopping production?
Oh well...a long run. And now the high schools can start producing it...as long as the right-wing parents in Orange County and Fairfax don't see the script before the curtain goes up.
John, you are mistaken. In his opening address, Akinola stated:
"In the wisdom and strength God supplies we must rescue what is left of the Church from error of the apostates."
Full text here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/...jun/23/
religion
Proud Liturgical Heterodox Unitarian
*titter*
Frankly, when we're talking somewhat current so-called 'rock operas,' I've always been more drawn to "Hedwig and the Angry Inch." But for me to talk about what is and is not 'real' rock music puts me waaaaay outta my league.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-YO9FpWX57E
LPR
"The councils are Nicaea, 1st Constantinople, Ephesus, Chalcedon."
First Nicea, not the Second (which restored icons to the churches and prescribed their veneration.
trooper | 06.28.08 - 8:01 pm |
THey fail in the first test - Jesus said that all will know his followers by how they love one another. These fold exhibit zed love; except for their own super ego.
Counterlight, it will be kicking and screaming. THis is not the final deal; the american neo-Puritans want their OWN communion; the Afican bunch is just one step on that path.
Priscilla,
My original comment was in reference to the communique from GAFCON not the various addresses of the hierarchs.
Yours in ICXC
John
I'm also a big fan of Hedwig, one of my favorites.
" The people in parishes like Falls Church are used to being heard and listened to. I'm wondering what will happen when their new African bishop expects their unquestioning and immediate obedience?"
Me doubts they will get many demands from the "African" Bishops. God knows he's made about one American bishop for every 30 of them. And besides, i still think the Africans are being led about by wealthy, conservative Westerners. But really, what did we expect from this crew? You have a few bankrolled Africans and that mitered baptist Jensen. I just have trouble caring what they say. How sad, a demoniation founded on hate; or should i say, another demonisation founded on hate.
I am still puzzled. Has this conference created a separate communion in which TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada are no longer 'in communion' with these jurisdictions? If so, it seems strange that these people would consider themselves part of a structure that includes TEC and ACC and are willing to meet together at Lambith.
The two largest Lutheran synods in the U.S. have long cooperated with each other in various ministries and outreach. There are HUGE theological differnces between the two and highly unlikely that there will be pulpit and altar fellowship between them anytime soon. However, there is agreement about both having a common mission in Christ. That brings us together in many wonderful ways.
My hope is that if this is in fact the beginning of separate communions that you find ways of sharing common ministries. It seems to me that there has been two separate churches in existence for some time.
That's why Jim Naughton is an actual writer and I'm just a blogger! :)
Bravo!
I'm not sure what your point is, John -- I guess it's my ignorance of orthodoxy and heterodoxy.
Even if you were referring only to today's communique and "The Jerusalem Declaration", you twice stated that the phrase was "heterodox" and not "apostate", once to John Henry and once to Padre Mickey.
Are you saying that Minns made a mistake and used an incorrect phrase when typing up Akinola's opening statement or that Akinola is not orthodox for using the phrase "apostate" into of "heterodox"?
Proud Liturgical Heterodox Unitarian
And I love Hedwig too! I've got the soundtrack on my iPod.
"...that mitered baptist Jensen..."
Mitred? Surely not. Occasionally rocheted and chimered, perhaps, but surely not mitred.
Has this conference created a separate communion in which TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada are no longer 'in communion' with these jurisdictions?
I think they've kicked the Brasilians out, too. They like to pretend that the "other Bishop Robinson (Robinson Cavalcanti)" wasn't deposed. The Donatists (hey, they're heretics, right John "Ad Orientem"?) aren't very fond of the Global Center.
Any bets on what the name of the new North American Province is going to be? The North American Anglican Church? The Church of Nigeria/Uganda/Rwanda/Southern Cone in Apostateland?
Any bets on what the name of the new North American Province is going to be?
The Province of the Most Holy Donatus.
Billy,
Someone suggested the Global Anglican Fellowship (GAF), or the Global Anglican Communion (GAC).
I'm kind of fond of the Global Anglican Synod (GAS), as that pretty well sums up my opinion of this latest pass.
Lori,
This document introduced nothing new. Nothing changes. Everything remains in the same mixed up mess it was yesterday.
We are Anglicans, you see. We excel in fuzziness. To send everyone to their separate rooms would lessen the challenge, and give us fewer headlines. Can't have that.
We'll muddle our way through. And our grandchildren will have new things to fight about. Hopefully, they will be of more theological substance than a debate on gay cooties. Maybe a nice robust debate on the filioque clause?
But, no final resolution on it. Oh no. That will not do. To come to a final conclusion, and so eliminate potential options, is just so un-Anglican.
Ah, yes, they did include some of the South Americans in this little diatribe, didn't they? How inclusive of them to remember our neighbors to the South.
They seem to have forgotten about New Zealand, England, Wales, Scotland and various other places around the world that are attempting to be open to the radically inclusive love of God made known to us through Jesus Christ.
They seem rather fixated on the North Americans. I'm not sure why. Perhaps it is because that is where much of the wealth in the Communion is to be found? Nah, couldn't be for such a crass reason, could it?
Is 'Ad Orientam' with all his mystical know-how (no-how), confusing the word 'tenants' with 'tenets' ?
Serious theologians might quite like to know.
"We urge the Primates’ Council to authenticate and recognise confessing Anglican jurisdictions, clergy and congregations and to encourage all Anglicans to promote the gospel and defend the faith. We recognise the desirability of territorial jurisdiction for provinces and dioceses of the Anglican Communion, except in those areas where churches and leaders are denying the orthodox faith or are preventing its spread, and in a few areas for which overlapping jurisdictions are beneficial for historical or cultural reasons."
The new Donatist CURIA will decide which cleric is in or out. That approach isn't too new. Back in 2002, while I was interviewing for a teaching position in a theological college in the U.K, I was told that my eligibility depended on how my bishop had voted on Lambeth 1998 Resolution 1.10, not upon my academic credentials. Why? Because the CofE didn't want to offend the African bishops, who, even before + Gene Robinson's election, had determined which TEC bishop was in or out, depending on his/her vote at Lambeth 1998.
Well, I hope he meant "tenants." Otherwise, my comment about Rent would be completely out of context.
Wait. I think you're right.
ten·et -
An opinion, doctrine, or principle held as being true by a person or especially by an organization.
Oh, it was about all that doctrine stuff. Two people in a committed relationship who happen to be of the same gender is now a doctrine issue?
I did not know this.
To recall the words of Rosanna,
"Nevermind."
I'm tempted to ditto Susan's comment, "WHATEVER."
Self-styled "orthodox" use their poor understanding of the Gospel to further a questionable, schismatic agenda.
St. John Chrysostom once wrote, ""The desire to rule is the mother of all heresies." It is the mother of schism too, that great sin against love.
These folks need to be shown the door. Politely and with as little animus as possible. But the door nonetheless.
Neither orthodox nor Anglican and therefore nothing to do with the Global Anglican future.
"These folks need to be shown the door. Politely and with as little animus as possible. But the door nonetheless."
Are there mechanisms in place to do this? I mean, short of the unlikely prospect of Archbishop of Canterbury declaring himself to be out of communion with them? Are we stuck with them until they decide they can't take over the whole show and leave on their own?
Regarding Anglicanism's fuzziness, and our aversion to eliminating options, do you recall my favorite "pearly gates' story?
Three clergy, a Roman Catholic priest, a Lutheran pastor and an Anglican priest all died and showed up at the pearly gates. It was Peter's day off, so Jesus was administering the entrance exam.
Jesus said, "Forget all that stuff you learned down there. To get into heaven, you only have to answer one question. Who do you say that I am?"
The Roman Catholic priest confidently stepped forward and said, "The Church teaches..."
Jesus interrupted him. "I didn't ask what the Church teaches. I asked who YOU say that I am."
The Roman Catholic priest scratched his head and said, "I'm not quite sure."
A tap door opened, and off he went to that other place.
Jesus turned to the two remaining clerics, who were now beginning to tremble a bit. "Who will be next?"
The Lutheran pastor hesitantly took a half step forward. "Well, in the bible..."
"Stop!" said Jesus. "That's not what I asked. Who do YOU say that I am?"
The Lutheran pastor stammered, "I...I...I don't really know."
The trap door opened, and off to that other place he went.
Jesus then turned to the Anglican priest. "Well?"
The Anglican replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus smiled, gestured, and the pearly gates began to swing open.
Then the Anglican priest continued,
"...But, on the other hand..."
I have so many questions. What about the TEC people in attendance? Would their participation in all this add up to an 'abandonment of communion?'
Seems to me that this is pretty close to what others have been deposed for.
Well, two bishops, Duncan and Iker, will most likely be deposed anyway, for past actions and future proposed actions.
It won't be a punishment, really...just acknowledging the reality that they have abandoned the Episcopal Church. That will allow a new Bishop to be elected for those Dioceses. Just a paperwork thing, really.
"I have so many questions. What about the TEC people in attendance? Would their participation in all this add up to an 'abandonment of communion?' "
Good question. I wonder if this had anything to do with the plans not to release this report until tomorrow (it was released by a certain far-right blog in error this afternoon)- if they were going to give the TEC bishops some sort of cover before or during the final meeting?
Yes, Iker will probably be deposed but unfortunately it probably won't happen until he has defected to the Southern Cone and left Ft. Worth in shambles. That he plans to attend Lambeth after this fiasco calls into question his motives.
Yes, that he will do much damage to Fort Worth before he leaves is sad. But it is no reason to give up hope.
If our cause is just, God will rebuild from the remnant that remain.
I hope that folks will take this latest development as just another event among many more to come. In the big picture, it will probably prove to be of little significance.
And if I am wrong in that assessment, we might want to recall Romans 8:28 - "All things work for good for those who are called, according to God's purpose."
We may perceive our events as a mix of good times and bad times. The reality is that God is moving through it all, and the movement of God is always from one moment of glory to the next moment of glory.
It's called redemption...because of human depravity and free will, bad things will happen. But God is moving through it all, not necessarily undoing what we perceive as a "bad time," but redeeming it, using it for good.
We trust that God is moving through all these events, from glory, to glory. We are called to move with God, and if we cannot perceive his glory, then we move from faith, to faith.
For all you Rent and Hedwig fans, please allow me to suggest Bare (excerpts only, unfortunately, and not including Plain Jane Fat Ass), but a detailed synopsis is here. I'd refer you to the current production in Maplewood, New Jersey, that two-thirds of my children are teching for, but the final show is just about to close.
/plug
I would like to say that I don't "recognize" this renewed attempt at a "communion within a communion" (an absurdity if I ever heard one), but I do. It's called "popular american religion" - couched in the most poetic terms available to GAFCON (why in heaven's name did we all send our out-of-date, euro-centrically biased and no longer useful libraries to the developing countries in the '50s and '60s? Can't we ever just throw something away when it has outlived its usefulness? I.e., those things that are even useless to TEC thrift shoppes?). Phyllis Chesler wrote about and illustrated the matter eloquently in a mid-70s book called, "About Men." This religion's latest most powerful and failed adherent (also for political and financial reasons) was GW.
Uh oh (s),
What are we to do?
I'm currently Catholic, but I would like to become Anglican. However, there is no way I can become Episcopalian because our local pastor says that there are multiple ways to God and that contradicts with my common sense reading of the bible.
I'm assuming many of the conservatives have similar issues. You keep saying that it is the Gay/Lesbian issue - no, it is the core belief of scriptures.
JefferyR,
In this case you may be correct, but only in part. That's where the "big tent" or "wild garden" comes into play. A friend of mine, who is a Desciple of Christ, put it best, "Doesn't it seem arrogant to say that there is only one way to view God for 5 billion+ people?" It may not be that there is more than one way to God, just more than one way to walk that path. Some prefer to walk, some run, some crawl, while others ride bicycles. Now cyclists are not runners, who are not walkers, who are not crawlers, but all are on that same path.
In the case of this latest meeting of neocons in Jerusalem, they say it is about scripture, and maybe it is. They want to follow the letter of the law saying "no women ordinations", and "no gays alowed", since it's in the Bible. It's an excuse for exclusion.
I'm also a big fan of Hedwig, one of my favorites.
Counterlight | Homepage | 06.28.08 - 8:42 pm | #
Ditto, too bad she got killed off in Book 7!! LOL!
Jim,
We must weep. It is a bunch of old men trying to maintain there relevance.
We must cry for the children that are starving and are being ingnored by these bishops. We must cry for the women who are raped and killed in Darfur and the Congo while these bishops worry about churches in Dale City, VA. We must weep for the children in Uganda who are pressed into wars at the age of 6 and 7 to kill others while these bishops gather thier flock in Forth Worth, TX. We must weep for the thousands in Argentina that have disappeared while these bishops plunder Fresno, CA. Weep for all the disenfranchised who will remain so for a longer time due to the purple-shirted thugs who love to hate.
So, in all of this, where is the mercy? Does no one in this group understand mercy? Why is mercy not mentioned? Why is mercy not practiced? Where is the mercy that God has so generously provided to them? I weep because there is no mercy.
Jeffery, just remain Roman Catholic. If I'm right, we can laugh about this in heaven. If you are, you can laugh at me in hell.
Yet another stealth Unitarian here.
LPR
There's a lot of wisdom in this thread. Jim Naughton's global perspective is quite a wake-up call. Susan Russell's "whatever" sounds like sanity to me. Bill Carroll's St. John Chrysostom quote, "The desire to rule is the mother of all heresies" and his commentary, "It is the mother of schism too, that great sin against love." pretty much says it, and one can only hope our reasserter brethren are paying attention. If they don't get it, then perhaps it is time to politely show them the door. If they want to live like that, then let them, but they have no right to stop the movement of the Spirit amongst Christians. (And yes, we know it threatens their self-importance.)
And our grandchildren will have new things to fight about.
True, but think of how we're fine-tuning it down to, hopefully, minutia. We've pretty much eliminated race and gender, and now we're taking care of orientation. The bigots of our grandchildren's generation will have to split hairs to claim "superiority" over their fellow human beings. They may risk looking ridiculous. Jake, I love the spirit of your 06.28.08 - 10:00 pm comment.
James, you grow on a person, ya know? Please take good care of your health. Prayers for this.
Thanks, fs. Was procrastinating. Trying to finish a sermon. Tough set of lessons tomorrow. I wish I could preach the message of redemption instead of what the texts call for.
Well, I did actually work a bit of redemption in there. Usually do. It's one of my themes.
Actually, maybe the theme. Someone once said that every preacher has only one sermon, and every sermon is just another variation of the same message. I think there may be some truth to that.
Well, I don't _think_ I'm a liturgical Unitarian, but I am a universalist, albeit one who thinks the salvation of all persons (and, indeed, of the whole creation, fallen angels perhaps being excepted) is accomplished through, and only through, the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ--which is to say, independently of whether persons in fact believe correctly or not. But that's just me (well, me and Karl Barth in his more completely logically consistent moments). What I find curious is that the opinions about many ways of salvation which TEC is being accused of holding seem to be the self-same ones which last week's poll results reveal to be held by a plurality of Americans of every religious stripe--RC's, Baptists, Jews und so weiter...if religious organizations are to be judged on the theological positions of their members, it would seem to be the case that all religion in America is apostate or heretical, as the case may be.
The way I see this, it is not about "sex"; it is not about orthodoxy; it is purely about power! Who is going to run the show.
I’m never been keen on people who drop scriptural references into arguments (usually without quoting the text, as it happens). It’s not been a general way of making points in either my CofE or SEC experience. And we have a fine example of why it can be suspect in the first para of this statement re the Great Commission and “build[ing] up the church on the foundation of biblical truth (Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 2:20)."
As people here will know, Ephesians doesn’t refer to “biblical truth” but to “the apostles and prophets, Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone”. Which is somewhat different. I think that’s a pretty good example of how these people show their fidelity to the text!. They're not quoting Scripture - they're telling us what it means. And why haven’t they worked out that it was the Church that defined the canon of scripture, not the scripture that defined the Church; or that the early Church had no “Scripture” as we now know it (and had some texts that didn’t get into the final canon)?
And am I the only one who sees their use of "Jesus" as a rhetorical device rather than a reference to a living teacher?
But I think their use of “confessing” church is interesting. The only precedent I can think of is the anti-Nazi Christians who opposed the “German Christians” in the German reformed churches. And their “Fellowship” rhetoric suggests, alas, more of the same to come. Lambeth (and any response to this statement from +++Rowan, given what it says about Cantuar) could indeed be very interesting. Now the knives are out… (I continue to think that the majority here are under-estimating the ABC. He certainly seems to have alienated the theologically illitarate "we don't do nuance" Calvinists of GAFCon - perhaps not accidentally...)
Someone once said that every preacher has only one sermon, and every sermon is just another variation of the same message.
Well, then, perhaps the call is to sing that particular note in his choir. To do it, and do it well, sounds like happiness, even fulfillment, to me.
Well, sometimes it's more interesting to come in after a lot of comments.
I guess what comes about the statement to mind is the usual spectrum of pick-a-century on the definition of heresy.
Jim, you did call it like we see it in most of Fairfax County. I would like to note that places like Truro and its mission churches were not a refuge for traditional Virginia Episcopalians. This is just an observation over about 14 years, and I do see things in the eyes of someone born, raised and educated in Montgomery County, Maryland. The native Fairfax County/Washingtonians and native Montgomery County/Washingtonians (of the many natives who don't exist, LOL) aren't that different. I think the transient populations are a bit more divided in thought when you cross the Potomac. Transient probably means anyone who came here as an adult, BTW, a hometown prerogative from a native daughter of a native daughter - adults get to chose where they live in the area.
I will be leaving now. But, to borrow a phrase from years gone by -- (You 60's types should remember this one):
GAFCON is not
healthy for children
and other living things.
I liked Susan's "Whatever." I just can't take them seriously. Buffoons. I go away after each reading with Gilbert & Sullivan librettos running through my head.
Jake, look up and see what the lessons for tomorrow are from the 1662 book. :)
JefferyR,
In all kindness, I think you have some serious church (and soul) searching to do. I say this as a person raised Episcopalian - but with good a couple friends who are practicing Catholics, one who left it a year ago, and one who has pulled out the silver bullets and garlic since adulthood just at the mention of anything about Rome.
I might add that these days if you say you want to become an "Anglican" it often means heading far into Pentacostal-type Protestantism. And being an "Episcopalian" can mean any number of taditions, some of them almost regional.
I always tell people thining of TEC as a fast move from the Roman way - go slowly, read up on our history, and make sure you go to one of the 2-3 month adult classes for potential adult confirmands/seekers/etc. Thre's a lot to learn. Many RCs are raised to believe we are essentially "catholic without the Pope," and that only describes a certain percentage of Episcopalians. Don't just be drawn to to our beautiful liturgy, perhaps.
Every choice of a faith community has its compromises, so find out which ones you want to make. As noted by our RudigerVT, you might feel most comfortable staying with the Roman way. Peace.
It would be a lie for me to say I have no strong feelings about this.
I do believe the new communion (how I see it) errr the fellowship (how they see it) are one in the same: read new communion (for now within a communion).
Maybe I an wholly wrong here, but I don't know how one can divide anything by zero. Maybe I'm not up on my math.
In reality, though, the fact is they are unable to get enough support to walk away at this time.
A good thing, in a way, and a troubling thing, in another.
In no way do I want to be associated with those that violate human rights. I am associated, though, because they don't have the strength to leave, and we don't have the strength to require their leaving.
What a pitiful state and what an awful position some of us find ourselves in. I personally am horrified to find myself constantly in flux with a potential killer who can barely utter a cogent response to press (even a hateful one, let alone one that is consistent with the last one or a true one).
They cannot leave the communion, because, if they do... they have NO press. Once they're gone, they're history. As long as they hang around like bats, they will fly out, munch, and return to the safety of the communion while leaving a pile of guano.
I guess, having had a family of bats at a former house, the guano is useful and there is a lot to be done with it. Rather not have to deal with it, though.
The difference is, I actually like bats.
Padre Mickey wrote: “The orthodox uphold seven Ecumenical Councils.”
and “Ad Orientem” asked which of the 7 this corresponds to.
The number of Ecumenical Councils is a give-away. The 4 are a Classic Calvinist ploy from the Academia Juliana at Helmstedt 1577.
Duke Heinrich Julius of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttle used Theology as an instrument of foreign policy contra Lutheran Wittenberg.
The claim was that Wittenberg was “official” (= Elector of Saxony ; = ) Heinrich Julius and his Academics pretended that Helmstedt’s positions were “neutral” = the plain “truth” (favourite Indo European Idea), but followed 3rd and 4th century Platonist/Gnosticist theologians contra Ireneus and Co…
The pretended non-“official” Duke was Rector of the University of Helmstedt at the tender age of 12, and later Administrator of the Dioceses of Halberstadt and Minden, Secret Councillor of Roman Catholic Emperor Rudolf II at Prague and a burner or 114 witches.
Slightly more pleasant was his love for Theater and Musicke (composer Michael Pretorius).
Some 18 or 20 generations ago Heinrich-Julius was the great–nephew of an aunt (also 2nd cousin).
In 1591 he exiled the Jews.
Loge, "confessing church" is also one of the code names for the IRD/Dominionist movement.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Con...essing_Movement
"The Confessing Movement is an Evangelical movement within several American mainline Protestant denominations to return those churches to what the members of the movement see as theological orthodoxy. . . . Of particular concern to those in the Confessing movement has been a perceived lack of concern for, or non-evangelical approaches to, evangelism, to the deity of Christ, to questions of sexuality and homosexuality in particular."
I believe we had a protracted discussion on another thread over these very same issues quite recently, LOL.
So the "fellowship of confessing Anglicans" is a dogwhistle to those in that particular movement, I would guess, and probably the wording was put there by Minns, et al.
Is there a connection between the Karl Barth Nazi "Confessing Church" and the IRD's "confessing church" movement in America? i would only say that the people who started this movement are very educated, very politically savvy, and not prone to making giant errors of this nature without cause.
Pax
I'm very sorry -- that should say "Karl Barth's ANTI-Nazi church" above.
Anyway, the implication is that we are not only apostate, heretics, and heterdox, but akin to Nazis, I guess.
Godwin's Law indeed.
Pax
Scene: The Last Supper.
Participants: Jesus and his 'chosen.'
Setting: Upper Room. One big table. One tiny table.
Dramatic Action: In the middle of the meal, Jesus asks Peter, James, and John to join him at the little table.
Disputed Action: There he blesses bread and wine and distributes it only at the little table?
Not sure how this ends.... But it's a "communion within a communion."
The 'chosen' versus the self chosen?
Somehow I missed this part of the Bible.
Or did Jesus make everybody move over at the end of the big table and move his little group just to one side, so it would be more obvious when they communed all by themselves?
It's all so confusing. And none of it in the bible!
I still think the whole thing will collapse into civil war. The Anglo-Catholics (like +Iker and xSchofield) are left out in the lurch with this document. The issue of women's ordination (++Orombi does, ++Jensen doesn't) remains unresolved. The authority of the Bible, claimed to be the central issue for these folks, may well emerge as a contentious issue for them. Among them are many literalists, and many who read the Bible not-so-literally.
Adding to this combustible brew is a certain character feature that they all seem to share. Liberals can be as greedy and ambitious for power as anyone else in the world, but, there is a certain "live and let live" outlook that is willing to allow and accommodate dissension and variation.
All of these people in the GAFCON group are very much "my way or the highway!" types that expect obedience and conformity with no back talk.
So, while they are building their redoubts against the world and against each other, I wish everyone
HAPPY GAY DAY!!!!
I once asked Canon to the Ordinary for x-JDS a question about the resolution of certain issues within the diocese. Would this split resolve the issues of women priests, LGBT, Book of Common Prayer, etc. His response was telling. Gandenberger said No, it does not, that those issues would have to be dealt with at another time. I must agree with others here, the glue used to hold this "august" body known as GAFCON together is pretty thin and not very adhesive. So, the question for our leadership remains the same -- Why keep this group around? Packer is calling for the ABC to step down. GAFCON says he is old and tired and irrelevant. GAFCON says they do not need the ABC. So, why not just let them go? Suddenly there would be no one to pick on. The glue would unbond in one big hurry because now they would have to figure out who is following the 39 Articles of Faith and who is not? This group will turn on itself. The other issue no one is talking about, IMHO, is the need for ex-TEC'ers to remain Anglican. All the parishes that left EDoSJ left so they could be orthodox BUT still be Anglican. Why not take that away so that the choice becomes one of in or out. Nothing in between. Nothing to salve the conscience of those who really think they are "helping us to find our true bible thumping selves".
Bible: Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors.
I don't recall, in the feeding of the 5000 (or the 4000) that there was a separate line for gay people or women or sinners and tax collectors. Or maybe I missed that part.
Counterlight, you are correct. Once they have vanquished the evil gays from their cult they will start eating their own. People/groups such as this exist only to fight; when the fight is over, there is nothing to keep them united. Once that happens, the fight for top dog will be a continual activity. The problem is they have done all the spiritual damage they can do before they start eating their own. I mean, show me a solemn high mass using the 1662 book. That just does not work very well.
I have come to the most amazing conclusion. Fundamentalists do not approve of Episcopalians. So, nothing has really changed since I was baptized in the 1950s. Must look at the big picture!
"We thank God for the courageous actions of those Primates and provinces who have offered orthodox oversight to churches under false leadership, especially in North and South America."
I...see. If the leadership is ordained and consecrated in accordance with the Canons and the local polity, but doesn't agree with the GAFcon rightwingnuts, then it's a "false leadership." But the schismatics who scatter the flocks and steal the sheep are "courageous."
"We recognise the desirability of territorial jurisdiction for provinces and dioceses of the Anglican Communion, except in those areas where churches and leaders are denying the orthodox faith or are preventing its spread, and in a few areas for which overlapping jurisdictions are beneficial for historical or cultural reasons."
Riiiight. Local jurisdiction is good, except when the GAFconistas might profit from ignoring it. And what possible "historical or cultural reasons" justify financial rape and congregational pillage?
Amazing drivel, all of it. How can anyone write this stuff, publish it with straight faces, and expect it to be taken seriously as anything but a statement of harmful intent? Which the writers may or may not even be able to carry out?
Feh. I'm going to church and do something right and useful.
Lynn,
I certainly agree with that. In fact i do not think one can find two fundamentalists that can agree o nthe time of day. That being said, How di they get inside TEC? I figure growth at any price and guess what, it's time to pay up for the growth.
How do they plan to "authenticate and recognise" those who meet their criteria for acceptance? Will marks on the forehead be required?
Fred
Gafcon are not threatening to leave. They are threatening to stay and reform the communion.
TEC cannot kick them out. An alternative province in North America, recognised by Gafcon is coming. It won't be recognised by canterbury, but it will be recognised by most of the communion. I can't see that TEC can do much about that.
Dorothy,
no just the 14 marks (of faith) set out in the Jerusalem declaration.
Obadiahslope -
I understand that. I did not say that TEC should kick them out. GAFCON has clearly stated that they do not need/want the ABC. IMHO, one cannot use or abuse the name of Anglican without the ABC. Anglican = Church of England Anglican /= GAFCON. They haveremoved themselves from the Anglcian Church, we, the Anglcian communion need to make it official.
Ob; since "most of the communion" was not in Jerusalem this past week as the baptists had their meeting, they did not speak for "most of the communion." Sometimes your posts are bloody tiresome as the posts continue to spout the same old cultish line of "say if often enough and it will come true." The GAFCON folks might buy some ruby red slippers to click (of course there are many of their own bishops who have these in their closets now).
James,
The maths is simple. Add up the number of anglicans represented by the primates in jerusalem, and you get more than half the communion.
Of course the numbers do not mean the Gafconites were right, simply that a lot of the communion had a stake in what has taken place.
Obadiahslope:
Just so you have advance warning today. I have had my diocese stolen by a marauding bishop from Fresno in cahoots (that is an old west term, hint, hint) with a purple-shirted thug from So. America. Now, I have a bunch more purple-shirted thugs threatening to steal/kill my church as an institution. Please note, and I mean this in the kindest way possible, stay away. You will not like the answers you get today and they will not be either well-thought out or coated with politic.
Fred,
having had someone threaten to punch my lights out on this forum recently I realise that restraint in language is not something that i can rely on here. But have no wish to provoke you - and i respect the fact that you have strong feelings on these issues.
So let me wish you goodnight, it is nearly 1am here.
Obadiah, Fred is right. It's not a good day to be bringing out all the things you always say. No gunfight at the OK Corral, please (another old West reference).
It's Sunday. The Lord's day.
Fred, and everybody else, the canon rule of blogging is not to feed trolls. If they do not find sustenance, they go elsewhere.
Today, and especially on this thread, please ignore any and all trolls.
A gracious good morning to you my dear Lynn!
It's well and truely Monday, Lynn. But I take your point.
Good point, David. And also, all, remember: saying won't make it so. There is a sort of magic-incantation quality to all this. They appear to think that if they say stupid things, over and over they will suddenly make sense and come to pass.
As if.
LPR
Seven whole days, not one in seven,
I will praise thee;
in my heart, though not in heaven,
I can raise thee.
Small it is, in this poor sort
to enroll thee:
e’en eternity’s too short
to extol thee.
George Herbert, 1633
I will be interested to see how Canterbury responds to this declaration. Up to now, ++Rowan has bent over backwards to accommodate the GAFCONites and has worked diligently to try to appease them. Now that they have told him to take a hike things may change. I doubt much will happen until Lambeth anyway and maybe not even then.
When the new North American province is created, whether under the leadership of Duncan or Venables (and I bet that's going to be a battle royale) how will TEC, ACoC, and the AC respond? If they are not recognized by Canterbury as being in communion then that will create a host of legal issues regarding property disputes, etc. This is going to be a long and dirty fight. By the way, Ruth Gledhill reports in The Sunday Times reports that the name of this "new province" will be called "The Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans." Indeed.
I will side with Jake on this one and trust that God is working through this process and all will work to the good eventually. But I think our faith will be sorely tested over the coming months and years.
Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Obadiah wrote:
---
The maths is simple. Add up the number of anglicans represented by the primates in jerusalem, and you get more than half the communion.
---
But the implication that ALL of these people agree with their bishops on ALL matters related to Christian doctrine is absurd, Obadiah.
Good morning, däˈvēd. Thank you for sending some sunshine my way. Nervously preparing for a brunch date. Perhaps this wasn't the best place to visit while letting my hair start to dry, LOL.
Please note that I understand all -- and my post was not to suggest anything other than a VERBAL onslaught that would be "uncharacteristic" of me. I do not wish to be uncharitable but today is just not a good day for me. I will continue to observe all of Jake's rules.
It is difficult to not feel deep resentment for a group of people who bring in their fundamentalist/Calvinistic crap and then foist it on everyone else telling us that "we are poor dear misguided souls that need their help to get straight." I have heard that s**t from x-JDS till it bubbled over and got all over my shoes. I just got them clean and I am not about to have them soiled again by a bunch of thugs.
Obadiah you must be patient... TEC has had a very bad week and they do not take setbacks lightly. First, of their Bishops in one of the largest dioceses was (finally!) found guilty of harboring his little brother who was unashamedly sexually abusing a young girl The worst part of that story is that other Bishops were aware of the issue and said/did nothing about it and ordained the little brother. They passed on the problem, which eventually got him to a Bishops chair. The entire church structure ought to be ashamed of this one. Then the Va. Courts ruled in favor of the 11 Anglican churches in the famous dispute about property. Not a winner yet, but not good news for TEC. then to cap it off, GAFCON comes along and does not leave, but promises to stay inside the Anglican communion. How disappointing that is for some. As each day goes by, it becomes more and more obvious that the storied, beloved Episcopal Church will be forced to deal with reality. No, it is not "just a few" churches that are in crisis. It is the whole brand. There is jusst one thing left to do. Pray, brothers and sisters, That is what I am on the way to do now. Nothing else seems to make sanse right now.
Fred, then there's this.
When we let ourselves get provoked by the opponents of full inclusion, they have won. Not in a big way. But in a small way.
What's more, we're participating in their cruelty. I dare say it's a form of enabling and encouraging sadism.
True, some of these people put on a nice facade. But they also get off on our suffering. Ick.
LPR
TEC has had a very bad week and they do not take setbacks lightly.
They. They?
Odd statement from one of "us."
LPR
That is just it LPR, it is not really one of you.
As the last little while has shown, the trolls could well be out in force today. Perhaps they smell blood.
I had folded my tent, but Rudiger raises an important point withwhich i would like to engage. I do not see how the Jerusalem declaration causes "you" (TEC loyalists) to suffer. One progressive blogger who often has helpful comments, BLS, welcomed the opportunity it affords TEC to proclaim itself as an inclusive church. (I hope I have been fair to her thinking).
It may be that separating conservative from progressive anglicans may give each of them a chance for a clear message in the North American scene.
Lord, give me patience and give it to me right now!
Agreed, Obadiah. And as soon as TEC's committed malcontents do the right thing -- leave -- it will clear things up a lot. However, please stop asserting that the distinction is conservative v. progressive. This belies a from-afar misapprehension of the reality in the USA. It's not that simple.
Then again, it's probably my own n-of-one extrapolation, as I assume that most self-identified conservatives in TEC are more like my mother than, well, like you.
LPR
Rudiger,
a fair point about language. It is a pity that there is no agree-ed upon set of terms for us to use. Goodnight.
Lynn about those pies, does any of this make sense?
Eight Tips for Successful Fruit Pies
by Rose Levy Beranbaum
Plan Ahead
Letting the dough rest is an important part of the pie-making process, and it also allows you to divide the work over several days if you wish. After making the dough, shape it into a disk and refrigerate it for at least 45 minutes or up to two days. (You could also freeze it for up to three months; let it defrost in the fridge before proceeding.) Next, roll out the dough, transfer it to the pan, and refrigerate it for at least 30 minutes. (If you're making a single-crust pie, you can refrigerate it overnight again at this point.) Fill the pie. If you're using a top crust, add it and refrigerate for one hour more. Then bake. All this refrigeration allows the gluten in the flour to relax, resulting in a more tender crust, and it also prevents distortion during baking.
Choose the Right Pan
For the crispest crust, use pans that are either dark heavy metal, ceramic, or ovenproof glass—avoid lighter metal pans, as they don't conduct heat as well.
Heat Things Up
To ensure proper cooking, be sure to preheat the oven for at least 20 minutes before baking.
Keep It Crisp
For a crisp bottom crust, place the pie directly on the floor of the oven for the first 30 minutes of baking. Or preheat a pizza stone on the bottom rack and place the pie on that. Be sure to move the pie up after 30 minutes, though, or you might burn the bottom.
Know When It's Done
Don't take the pie out until its juices are bubbling thickly all over, including the center. This will ensure that the cornstarch has fully absorbed liquid and thickened the filling. To cook the filling fully, you'll probably need to cover the edges of the crust to prevent overbrowning. To do this, either tent several pieces of foil around the rim or use specially made foil pie shields. Single-crust pies need to have their edges covered after the first 15 minutes of baking; double-crust pies after 30 minutes.
If Necessary, Create a Shield
While waiting for the filling of a double-crust pie to cook, you may find that the top of the crust is browning too much as well. If this happens, tent it with foil, but be sure to make a steam hole in the center for moisture to escape so the crust stays crisp.
Cool Completely
To ensure that the filling is set and will not run, allow the pie to cool on a rack to room temperature or just barely warm before slicing. This will take between two and four hours, depending on its thickness.
Grease It Up
To make cutting easier, grease and flour the pan before lining it with the pastry. Once the pie has cooled completely, this should make it possible to slide it out of the pan before cutting it. You'll avoid damaging your knife or pan during slicing, and the flour will give a pleasant, slightly rough texture to the bottom crust.
This one's for David. The dear lady who created this recipe was forever baking goodies and these biscuits are delightful. Enjoy!
Episcopal Sunday Biscuits Supreme
3 cups all-purpose flour
3/4 teaspoon salt
6 teaspoons baking powder
1/2 teaspoon cream of tartar
2 teaspoons sugar
3/4 cup of vegetable shortening
1 cup milk
Preheat oven to 400 degrees F.
Combine dry ingredients in a large bowl.
Cut shortening into dry ingredients with a knife and fork until the mixture resembles dried peas.
Add milk and mix gently just until dry ingredients are incorporated.
Roll out gently, cut biscuits with a water glass, and place on an ungreased baking sheet.
Bake for 10 to 12 minutes.
These biscuits will be very high and very light.
Enjoy with butter and your favorite jam/jelly/preserves.
DAvid/Priscilla:
Thanks, sanity comes in all flavors! I am off to exchange the peace!
Grease the pan before you put in the pastry?
WHO KNEW???!?!?!!?!?!?!
OMG, I might not be so hopeless a pastry chef after all.
That was truly a revelation. Thanks, David!
LPR
Priscilla, question: is the Lady in question from the North or the South?
And, if from the South, does the receipt *giggle* assume the use of White Lilly flour?
http://www.whitelily.com/Product...aspx?
groupid=93
LPR
LPR, she was from WV, sort of straddled halfway between the North and the South, LOL. I'm pretty sure she used Pillsbury, since it was the only brand sold at our small grocery store way back then.
White Lily flour would be preferred to Lily White flour! And certainly over pastey white!!
LOLz. In fact, I got *ahem* to 44 without having even heard of the stuff. This included my stint in the Diocese of Really Western Tennessee (Arkansas -- inside joke). So while a recent NYT article was interesting (and intriguing), I managed to shovel down a lot of really good biscuits made with standard-issue flour (and sometimes, shudder, Bisquick!)
Then again, when covered with sausage gravy, just about anything tastes good.
mmmmmmm
LPR
Now I'm going to have to head over to Bob Evans for a bowl of biscuits and gravy! I haven't had this childhood staple for years. There goes my summer diet, LOL.
You are right, BTW, EVERYTHING does taste better smothered in sausage gravy.
Yum!
I too am 44.
Speaking of Bisquick, or any other cheat mix, you can actually make some pretty good shortcake substitutes for, say, strawberry shortcake or peach shortcake, by using the box biscuit recipe and substituting sweetened, condensed milk for the regular milk. It is quick in a jam and your guests will be impressed. Especially if you whip the topping yourself.
You have gone YEARS without biscuits and gravy?
I don't know whether to wonder in admiration and amazement or shake my head in "poor-thing" purse-lipped pity.
And David, yes, though you've managed to cram in much more living. I tend to get somewhere, get comfy, hang out, and oh, you know, finish things up (degrees, post-docs) sorta whenever. As we type, I'm frantically getting ready for the next summer semester -- gulp, tomorrow -- but I can easily spend 10 hours on a 1-page syllabus.
I will definitely file away that trick w/ "Eagle brand." Are you familiar with Danger Pudding?
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/294235
LPR
Danger Pudding involves pressure cooking a can of sweetened condensed milk in a pressure cooker?
No, idiocy is illegal in Mexico!
LOL. It just struck me that, if you really wanted to live it on the edge, you could try this little trick when car camping, over an open fire.
Preferably at least one hour from the nearest ER.
LPR
Everything old IS new again. Over at The Lead, Bishop Pierre Whalon, who oversees the Convocation of American Churches in Europe, comments on the GAFCON justification for the new "CANA" province in North America:
"The Convocation of Anglicans in North America is a completely different animal, a reincarnation of the Novationist notion that if you don’t like your own bishop, consecrate another, “purer” one. This was condemned at the First Council of Nicea for all kinds of good reasons, and Anglicans have until now respected that decision (all of us also recite the Nicene Creed, most of which was written by the Nicea fathers, and completed at the next ecumenical council)."
I wasn't aware of the Novationist heresy, so I went to Wikipedia and found this:
"Those who allied themselves with the doctrines of Novatian were called Novatianists; their own name for themselves was the καθαροι ("katharoi"), the pure, reflecting their claim not to be participants in the lax practices of the Catholics by which they believed the Catholic church to have been corrupted. They went so far as to rebaptize their converts.
In the 4th and 5th century AD, the Donatists of North Africa followed a similar belief about Christians who had lapsed under the pressures of persecution. They too were declared to be heretics."
So we have indeed gone back in time, haven't we? I wonder of Akinola is aware of the greek term "katharoi"? I'm sure he would love to name himself one of the "pure".
Pax
I think you have it, Priscilla: their new name is NOVATIONISTS.
Everything old indeed becomes new again.
Yeah. Like the fact that Jesus pissed people off because he refused to get wrapped up in a cult of purity.
It all winds its way back to pleasure and danger. Here, the hard borders of gender are an illusion, a failure to accept the fact that our eyes lie, our brains, unaided, deceive. There is no more male and female in Christ because there is no pure male and female to begin with.
As such, powerful-male ick about female-ness is, in part, a projection, a self-revulsion (not to mention a deep ambivalence, on the part of heterosexual men, who degrade what they desire and can only make sense of it with a virgin-whore dichotomy that took little time to infect Christianity). Of course, gay men's ick is often even worse, which is why we are often guilty of the most shameless, unabashed woman-hating -- but I digress.
Perhaps Jesus was just pointing out the obvious: your senses lie to you, especially about apparent, "obvious" categories.
LPR
John said, "this is clearly an open declaration that they no longer belong to what has been for some time a communion of liturgical unitarians."
Liturgical unitarians! Every Sunday, virtually every parish in TEC prays words like these: "Holy and gracious Father, in your infinite love you made us for yourself; and, when we had fallen into sin and become subject to evil and death, you, in your mercy, sent Jesus Christ, your only and eternal Son...." and "All this we ask through your Son Jesus Christ. By him and with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all honor and glory are yours, Almighty Father, now and forever."
Every Sunday, virtually every parish in TEC. Liturgical unitarians? Is this just a little false witness based on what you heard somebody say he knew was in the hearts of a whole lot of other people?
Peace anyway,
Mark.
Mark, John is a recent convert to Orthodox Christianity. That newly-converted zeal is over-the-top on the best days.... He simply came here to gloat about what he sees as a validation of his own life choices being declared superior.
Grain of salt. . . .
You may also click the link to his TMI! TMI! website. Quite the answer to the question, "time on your hands much, eh?"
LPR
Obadiah wrote: 'I do not see how the Jerusalem declaration causes "you" (TEC loyalists) to suffer.'
Not suffer, but the dishonesty in it is disturbing. There's an American saying that goes, "Don't piss on me and tell that it's raining." The GAFCONians are saying that they are remaining in the Anglican Communion, while actually committing schism. They claim to be "orthodox Anglicans," while making common cause with former Anglican fringe sects.
I was actually hoping that they would do what they've been threatening to do, and forthrightly leave. Personally, I find it much more acceptable for someone who acknowledges that they are not members of the Anglican Communion to set up shop within TEC's Provincial boundaries: it's a free country, after all, and we've got all sorts of religious groups here. But for someone to claim that they are members of the Anglican Communion and treat the AC's American Province as the Great Whore of Revelation is very painful.
Hello everyone,
Didn't you know this was going to happen?
BillyD. It's pretty simple. They don't want to leave. They want to push us out. Because, at the end of the day, for them, it IS about property.
And queers. Well, women (once again: homophobia as a weapon of sexism). But it's all headed to a high-stakes purge to get 'us' out of 'their' church.
Pfft.
LPR
Q: Didn't you know this was going to happen?
A: That the gloaters would return? Yeah, Chike, pretty much. Past behavior is the strongest predictor of future behavior. So it was a betting-person's wager. Not a surprise at all.
LPR
LPR- thanks for the catch-up. In saying "they: I wss speaking of those who appear to be in charge, ie the National church, not "us" -the faithful pew-sitters who give our time and energy and money to the higher ups to do as they will. I know this is considered a liberal or progressivbe website, but I thought we were all Christians, and behaving very much like Anglicans, as Jake said. Do you see these conversations as "us" vs. "them." And if so, who is who? If I disagree with your policies or theology or interpretation does that automatically make me a "them"?
I made extra copies of the Jerusalem Communique and placed them on the top of my toilet tank -- just in case!
Yeah, LLE, organizations with largely representative and democratic structure can be REALLY frustrating when things don't go your way. Frustration reliably leads to aggression. That's old news.
I don't have "policies." If you disagree with the policies of the church to which you were born, then yes, I can see why you're frustrated.
And?
LPR
The Jerusalem Communique, is just another rounding up/regrouping of panic-driven bunglers wiggling their way with words toward more spiritual dead-ends through twisting TRUTH and promoting fear and hate...shrill words from dangerous old men who would/do persecute fellow Christians and steal property too...not to worry, they are only clever in their shiftiness and scrambling to make sense out of flawed character behavior...empty, shallow and hateful...hardly powerful long-term attractions for healthy Christians (or anyone else)at The Body of Christ.
Didn't you know this was going to happen?
Chike | 06.29.08 - 1:58 pm | #
Yes. Akinola/Orombi couldn't pull off enough REAL support, with their low personal integrity and inability to articulate "difference/hate", to do anything else but continue to cause internal pain amongst fellow Anglicans/Christians/others with immoral persecuting/thieving schemes.
LLE:
The problem with a lot of this is they is us. That is the way this church and this country were structured. If we do not like something we change it. When we discover that fact we will start to do something about what is going on in GAFCONland because they have already found that out!
Joe:
Methinks you missed a right turn someplace.
LPR- Everyone has "policies" , at least according to me. They are the guidelines we live by, how we choose to behave, greet people, live day to day etc. On second thought that might be a big word for a simple thing. And I have NEVER agreed totally with any ruling authority, be it church or political or work or whatever. How I choose to deal with those disagreements differs depending on who, when why, etc. Sometimes I just walk away, sometimes I scream t the TV set, other times I decide its not all that important. So - am I a "them" ?
Huh?
May need to re-bait the hook, LLE. Whatever you're trying to corner me to say, I'm sorta losing the thread here.
LPR
däˈvēd -
Just my experience and observations: I have never heard of greasing and flouring a pan before fitting the pastry; the crust will only stick if the filling drips into cracks. Don't put the pan on the bottom of the oven, please. Do you use a foil collar (or get one of the onces they sell these days, excellent and no crimping of foil to fit. If anyone has a positive experience with the practice, I'm ready to learn something!
I have watched a couple of videos on the pastry technique, neither are quite what I was looking for. I will keep looking.
LPR, wow, you lived in Tennessee and and had never heard of White Lily flour? It makes very light biscuits and muffins. The biscuits are so light, they are almost like the "Angel Biscuits" that have a bit of yeast with the baking soda. Gravy? No! Real butter and homemade raspberry or blackberry jam, please.
--------------
On the serious side, Fred, you have something there on church-growing for the sake of it. My former next door neighbor is Moravian and they don't seem to be worried about playing that game. He has a very solid and gentle faith, and his Moravian friends from home (North Carolina) are a delight.
Obadiah,
As you may recall, I removed those offensive comments. That you could not resist mentioning them is disappointing.
Lynn, like I said, "Really Western Tennessee" = Dio Arkansas. Fayetteville, which is geographically NW (but not culturally). But I had a thing or 2 to do w/ some Memphis-region folk. We all worked together at a summertime choir camp (at a RC abby-cum-boy's-school).
Anyway, no, until recently, never heard of the stuff (WL flour, milled in TN). And yes, I realize that gravy is terribly unrefined. But I'm actually (shh) an Okie. I just don't know better!
LPR
GAFCON was born of hate, builds on hate and thrives on hate. It appears both self-generating and self-perpetuating. It also, as Leonardo has pointed out a number of times seems to stem from self-hate. It becomes a vortex that sucks everything into it and must be stopped.
As I have reflected on all this Gaf-con nonsense, I was reminded of a show from the 1960s called "It's about Time." The premise was that some astronauts came back to earth, but they'd time travelled and landed back in the "caveman" days. The leader of the “cavemen” ruled by the use of a huge club he kept hitting anyone had the audacity to disagree with him. The parallels are remarkable.
Chike, yes, we knew this would happen, but we kept hoping they would have the integrity to do what they have screamed they were going to do for the past 75 years. As usual, we liberals expected too much – integrity is not a word with which they are familiar.
Chike, how are things going for you back home? What are your plans for more education or work? Remember, even though we disagree with you, you are family to us after all this time.
Leonardo--I agree with your post in it's entirety and as to this part of it:
"The Jerusalem Communique, is just another rounding up/regrouping of panic-driven bunglers...."
Yes, they could hardly spend millions of dollars on the "not schism" and not come up with something that looked like a new thang. How they intend to operate within the Anglican Communion when they have no intention of working with the instruments of communion will probably be the subject of another Communique to one another. The CON continues ad nauseam.
I do see things in the eyes of someone born, raised and educated in Montgomery County, Maryland - Lynn
Appropos of nothing and entirely OT, the happiest summer of my life was spent in Chevy Chase Maryland as a teenager. A native San Diegan, I fought tears all the way from the Baltimore airport to Cummings Lane because I'd never before seen such lush and elegant beauty. It was like stepping into another world, a place of stone bridges (no, not the homophobic kind), three-story houses, weeping willows, fire flies, Cardinals, flying squirrels, deep, deep green woods, breathtaking Colonial architecture, and a whole neighborhood of kids who weren't cool to the point of blasé. Stayed with a Navy family (family friends, daughter my age), had lunch at the Governor's Mansion in Annapolis, toured the Capitol and environs (Smithsonian, etc.), Rock Creek Park, Glen Echo Park, the gorgeous Maryland countryside, visited beautiful Virginia down to Williamsburg. I realize youth and romanticism fed into the experience, but it was magic all summer long. Unforgettable.
A little more on-topic, we've got coverage on the front page of the NYTimes: Anglicans Face Wider Split Over Policy Toward Gays.
Life Long Episcopalian, | 06.29.08 - 11:11 am - pretty ugly stuff. Reeks of hatred, kiddo. Sorry.
When we let ourselves get provoked by the opponents of full inclusion, they have won. Not in a big way. But in a small way. - LPR
In Movement Criticism, a subset of Rhetorical Theory, this is an accepted position, with several peer-reviewed journal articles backing it up. And, boy, do I agree with what you say here:
What's more, we're participating in their cruelty. I dare say it's a form of enabling and encouraging sadism.
True, some of these people put on a nice facade. But they also get off on our suffering. Ick.
Yes, it's a nasty little game, and they are spiritually ill: let us not forget this. We are on the right side. All we have to do is continue with confidence of purpose and love in our hearts. The Lord is with us on this one. We can count on it.
fs
Yes I know that. I also understand that we are in this world not of this world and this world belongs to Satan. I will not go quietly into the . . .
fs--Thanks for the NYT link. I wonder if they have sent ++Rowan his "pink slip" yet.
As I have no life, particuarly on Sunday afternoon, I've been reading the internet comments. The Anglican Scotist has an interesting take on things.
http://anglicanscotist.blogspot.com/
Danger Pudding. An unopened can in a pressure cooker. Remind yo of anything?
Seriously, guys, it's a little safer to open the can - cook the stuff in a double boiler about an hour and a half, you'll know when the color is right. Eagle has microwave instructions now, I see.
Don't let your kids see that pressure cooker idea, they might want to surprise you with dessert - sorry mom/dad...it's on the ceiling...
Obadiah wrote: "The maths is simple. Add up the number of anglicans represented by the primates in jerusalem, and you get more than half the communion."
I suppose that's one way to look at, especially if you don't think that each Province in the Anglican Communion has equal footing. But to me, it makes as much sense as saying that the senators from states with higher populations should get more votes than others, or that some bishops in the House of Bishops should get more votes than others. Mere population, as far as I can tell, counts for squat in Anglican polity.
Of course, this ignores the question as to whether or not unelected leaders really "represent" the people in their organizations.
James
There seem to be several takes on this. Some who write from a very dispassionate reference point, some from a leaglistic reference point and some from a passionate, living it perspective. The blog you cite seems to be from a legalistic viewpoint.
The GAFCON statement cannot be taken out of context. Jake has pointed to several related documents that when placed all together spin a diabolical plot designed to eliminate anyone who does not agree with this very select group.
fs - one of my long-time friends owned a house for many years just three blocks away from where you lived that summer. Martin's Additions :-) is the neighborhood (or you were on the edge of it). still pretty in their, but of course much has changed in the nearby countryside. Darn, you just put a little lump in my throat. Yes, a beautiful area to grow up. I'm very lucky. Small world.
I agree, Fred; I just found his point view "interesting."
"It also signals the move of most of the world's practicing Anglicans into a post-colonial reality, where the Archbishop of Canterbury is recognized for his historic role, but not as the only arbiter of what it means to be Anglican. "
They reject the leader of the Anglican communion. And they claim they are Anglican.
"Speaking specifically to Anglican Christians in North America, the statement goes on to say that GAFCON believes "time is now ripe for the formation of a province in North America for the federation currently known as Common Cause Partnership to be recognised by the Primates' Council."
They say unilaterally declare the US open for stealing parishes and diocese without regard to or for anythone or anything.
These folks claim to represent 35 million people. While numbers, to the best of my recollection are not a persuasive argument I would add that this is how theycome at things. The arrogance of "speaking for 35 million people" blows me away.
They unilaterally declare a group of them the sole arbiters of wht is the faith and how to interpet the Bible.
Convince me there is no split. They like the money and power of being Anglican but not the church.
This is not "whoring around"?
James,
I hope you know I wasn't picking on you -- I was trying to complement the article you had cited.
On the question of GAFCON’s adoption of the first 4 ecumenical councils. As it states: 3. We uphold the four Ecumenical Councils and the three historic Creeds as expressing the rule of faith of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Although the Council of Antioch in 341 was not ecumenical, The 4th Ecumenical Synod specifically adopted its canons: “The Ecclesiastical Rules of the Holy Apostles, set forth by Clement, Pontiff of the Roman Church” They contain the following.
Canon XXXII. (XXXIII.)
If any presbyter or deacon has been excommunicated by a bishop, he may not be received into communion again by any other than by him who excommunicated him, unless it happen that the bishop who excommunicated him be dead.
Canon XXXIII. (XXXIV.)
No foreign bishop, presbyter, or deacon, may be received without commendatory letters; and when they are produced let the persons be examined; and if they be preachers of godliness, let them be received. Otherwise, although you supply them with what they need, you must not receive them into communion, for many things are done surreptitiously
Canon XXXIV. (XXXV.)
The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent; but each may do those things only which concern his own parish, and the country places which belong to it. But neither let him (who is the first) do anything without the consent of all; for so there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit. (Re: “Holy Spirit” vs. Father as well as Spirit…There are some variations in the manuscripts of the last few words of this canon)
Canon XXXV. (XXXVI.)
Let not a bishop dare to ordain beyond his own limits, in cities and places not subject to him. But if he be convicted of doing so, without the consent of those persons who have authority over such cities and places, let him be deposed, and those also whom he has ordained.
One would assume then that GAFCON decries its own decisions to cross borders or do its decisions on “orthodoxy” override the canons of the synod it allegedly adopts?
sigh.....
in 12-step groups one of the mantras is: one is only responsible for the input, not the outcome...
this is a very big sick situation. reeks of addictive processes. and the outcome is certainly beyond our baileywicks...
I hope to let go, and let God.
blessings all.
One of the more interesting comments on all this is a comment over a Episcopal Cafe:
***
Want to see “Confessional Anglicanism” at work?
Visit [SFIF -- link deleted in respect to Jake's policy] where they “discuss” the document.
Three quarters of the comments from 10-78 they are bickering amongst themselves. Some samples:
“Shame on you for ruining the final day of the conference.” (30)
“I could give a flying #@$@ about all this garbage” (78)
***
Do not underestimate the power of competing egotism and control-needs among this group of people. The last 30 years is filled with an alphabet soup of tiny splinter groups who could agree on very little. I see very little difference in this group. There are way too many irregularly ordained bishops -- they all can't be viable. Who's going to give up power? CANA AMiA? Then there's the bishops who haven't left yet. Who's going to give up power? Duncan? Iker? Hah! It's going to be one big feeding frenzy. Which reflects, I'm afraid, the whole lack of Christian charity this entire enterprise is based on.
dr.primrose
EPfizH, while those are excellent ecclesiastical rules, it's my understanding that Anglicanism accepts the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils but not their canons. There's probably a lot in those canons that we wouldn't be particularly happy to see put into practice today.
By the way, while looking at information on the Anglican attitude towards the Ecumenical Councils, I came across something called the Dublin Agreed Statement of 1984 - a joint statement by Eastern Orthodox and Anglican representatives. It says, in part:
"104 (a) We agree that the Ecumenical Councils provide an authoritative interpretation of Scripture in order to safeguard the salvation of the People of God.
105 (b) We differ, however, in our understanding of the relative importance of the Councils. While the Anglican members lay greater emphasis upon the first four Councils, and less upon the fifth, sixth and seventh, applying to conciliar decisions the concept of an ‘order’ or ‘hierarchy of truths’, the Orthodox members find this concept to be in conflict with the unity of the faith as a whole."
Mr. Dunkin Donut of Quittsburgh, the new Primate of North America, according to Mark Harris's reading of the Jerusalem Declaration and the African primates' comments:
"And of course the absence of Bishop Duncan is well noted. Remembering that the Global South Primates asked that the North American realignment community choose a spokes person, and that they named the Bishop of Pittsburgh and Moderator of the Common Cause Partnership as that leader, my guess is that the Primates Council will meet soon, perhaps even today, and acknowledge Bishop Duncan as the Primate of the new Province in North America. He will then be able to come forward having clearly been away from the fray and not involved in his own elevation, etc."
Dunkin Donut, what a joke! Let's hope that TEC's HoB will waste no time but depose the Donatist heretic.
dr.primrose--Yes, very interesting. I was going to try to figure out who went and who didn't. I think Duncan is on the didn't list. What about Schofield, Iker, Venables? The Common Cause coalition seems to be left without much of a voice.
John Henry--So, where does that leave Martie Minns?
Yes, x-JDs and the Canon Gandenberger both went.
Fred - not in the slightest! I understood what you meant.
EPfizH | 06.29.08 - 5:11 pm
Now, do you REALLY think that they have actually READ the documents? Besides, we all know that some parts of that council are still valid and binding and other parts are no longer applicable. :)
Way OT, but a chance to take advantage of our local expertise: IT, have you had a chance to look at this article, just noted over at The Lead:
http://www.plosone.org/article/
i...al.pone.0002282
The argument seems to be that male homosexuality is just the expression in males of a genetically determined increased androphilia: if I follow what the authors are saying, the expression of the same trait in females results in sufficiently increased fecundity to more than compensate for the diminished fecundity in the male relatives of those females.
Maybe we should invoke Homer Simpson to consume the Dunkin Donut, eh?
I'll make the coffee.
I understand that +JDS is going to attend Lambeth. Does the ++ABC recognize both +Lamb and +JDS as Anglican bishops in the same geographical area?
Also, Fr. Upton, who voted against leaving the Episcopal Church but eventually became part of the Southern Cone anyway, is the supply priest for St. Andrew's, Taft twice a month. Is he under the authority of two bishops?
This is confusing to a Lutheran!
Jake @ 06.29.08 - 12:49 am,
So, how did it turn out? Are you on track one (more difficult) or track two? I would dearly love to know how you preached it. Servants in the house of fear vs. servants in the house of divine love? It's all about the quality of our welcome? Inappropriate self-assertions vs. finding the meaning we yearn for in those whom God sends our way (not mutually exclusive, btw)?
How did you preach it?
Best,
David G.,
I'll bring the donuts (big smile).
Blessings,
I use the BCP lectionary. Don't care for the RCL. So, I avoided the divine child abuse story, but got stuck with the dysfunctional family gospel.
So, talked about conflict. Specifically, how unhealthy conflict avoidance is. Even worked in the Hegelian dialectic. And a story about my Uncle Cosmos from Hollywood.
My stepmother's family (10 brothers and sisters) were Greek. Their idea of a good time was to gather around Uncle Cosmos' huge butcher block table in the kitchen, drink wine and eat cheese and yell at each other for hours. Then, when it was time to go home, everyone was hugging and telling each other what a good time they had, and we have to do this again, etc. No problems with conflict avoidance in that family!
Jake wrote, "I use the BCP lectionary. Don't care for the RCL. "
Are they really that different?
We didn't use the Sunday propers in my parish, but went with Ss. Peter and Paul.
Thanks, Jake. I told them at the beginning that it is a really horrible story. And then I told them how we still send our sons and daughters into senseless wars, and reminded them that, in other places, we train our very youngest children in the art of suicide bombing. There just *must* be common ground in here somewhere. I got a phone call this afternoon from my "Uncle Claude" in Montreal. Table meals are dicey. But somehow, we all, really and truly blessed we are, find them. And the one you and I (and many others here) shared this morning is the best of all.
Thanks, Jake; you're a real chum,
Dahveed,
I met your Primate today. What a charmer, you lucky dog. Bishop Touche-Porter was the toast of the town and the life of the party here in New York.
If you guys in Mexico ever want to loan him out again, we'd be happy to have him back.
In the long run, I'm not worried about GAFCON. They're already making Anglo-Catholic sausage, and ++Jensen and ++Orombi are sharpening their knives to cut each other up over women's ordination.
Christ will reign, His LGBT children will always praise Him with glad hearts, having walked that Via Dolorosa with Him, full of hope in the Resurrection. And Our Lord will always be there with us in our exile, our sufferings, our struggles, and in our joys. And we will be there with Him, and He will be with us to the End of Days.
Are you ready for this? Now we have Foca. From the Riazat Butt article on TA re the gafCONS(Jake's side bar).
"The Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans (Foca) will sever ties with the main churches in the US and Canada, whose liberal leaders are accused of betraying biblical teaching."
4 May 1535+--More on the OT you posted on above.
http://www.episcopalcafe.com/
lea...osexuality.html
lori4dogs | 06.29.08 - 8:07 pm |
I've been asking the same questions about JDS and Fr Upton with no reply. This seems STRANGE to me!
Just FYI guys, if I have seemed flip or unconcerned about all of this, that isn't true. My general experience on such things is to see what happens next - but having seen my share of organizational in-fighting (ducking in cross-fire sometimes, caught in others), this is just one more thing of many.
More finger-pointing, and very little brave action in a real sense. "I won't run away from home because it is too satisfying to complain and get angry when you are here listening." I bet some conservative-types would say we haven't gone all out to change things, either, take your chances and except the consequences type of thing. But 2008 isn't the year for that in our structure.
I see all the classic signs of a certain type of sick organization. But I give credit to bonds of affection, and the AC is not a corporation. And we are experiencing a problem that all the churches are having - at least all the Western ones I know of. Including the Roman church, they have just reacted differently.
So, bottom line, I wonder if a food fight will end up breaking out at Lambeth, and I reserve judgment on the entire thing until after that party is over. Proclaiming the irrelevance of being in communion with the ABC could have some intersting consequences even with the set agenda we see.
There's nothing pithy here, I know. I'm watching, not waffling. I keep thinking, what's the missing piece of the puzzle? It's that quest that brought me here to Fr. Jakes. Now I know more about TEC, church politics and the history of Christianity than I would have imagined a year ago. There are some subtle lessons from our 2,000 + year old history fI keep rolling around.
I am certain of one thing - though mankind grow and changes - God is constant. And waiting for us to grow up a wee bit more.
Divinity
2 1/2 cups sugar
1/2 cup light corn syrup
1/3 cup water
3 egg whites, beaten until stiff
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1/2 cups nuts (optional, but they seem to be here in force today, so why not? LOL)
Boil sugar, syrup, and water until it spins a thread.
Pour into stiffly beaten egg whites.
Beat mixture with an electric mixer until thick.
Stir in nuts and vanilla.
Drop by a spoonful on waxed paper.
Let cool and enjoy!
GAFCON seems to have called out every loose cannon in the "orthodox/pure" world so I thought I'd give them some divinity to ponder.
Pax
The Anglican Scotists says it beautifully:
"It (i.e., the GAFCON Declaration) would seem a "no-brainer": the covenant should punish border crossing, implicitly recognizing the bankrupt ecclesiology of the Declaration as the theologically incoherent fraud it is."
The GAFCON Declaration is a FRAUD!!!
And the perfect aural accompnaiment to such a heavenly confection: Gluck's Divinites du Styx.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6FIwUuDyli0
More fun that a pile of dead-lawyer jokes.
LPR
Oh no, a new Seagull Troll, "nwlayman": Jake, Clean Up Aisle 3!
*****
Off-topic [Jake, if anyone says that it is out-of-bounds, please remove]
Some of you have wondered, over the past months, what became of Harry? (I know that I have!)
At Michigan Pride yesterday, I bumped into someone who knows him. It seems he's had some quite serious health problems of late. :-( But hopefully, he's doing better now? Prayers ascending!
[James, that goes for you, too---re your recent hospitalization. Feel better/BE better, soon!]
Warm Goat Cheese Toasts
1 8-ounce French-bread baguette
8 ounces soft fresh goat cheese (room temperature)
1/4 cup honey
1/2 cup finely chopped toasted walnuts (or pecans)
1/2 tablespoon chopped fresh rosemary
Cut eighteen 1/4-inch diagonal slices from baguette. Spread on foil-lined baking sheets and lightly brown on one side. Remove from oven and set aside to cool bread.
Readjust oven temperature to ( 350 degrees F (baking mode).
Heat honey in small saucepan over medium heat until just warm.
Spread goat cheese on each canapé base. Bake until edges are slightly golden and cheese softens, about 10 minutes (but watch carefully). Quickly sprinkle toasts with rosemary, then walnuts; lightly tap in the nuts with your finer or a spoon, they will be easier to eat. Drizzle with honey and serve warm.
Lynn, that also sounds positively heavenly. Vermont's become quite the place for so-called artisnal cheese, including several made from goats (who are, it must be said, adorable).
Costly, though worth it, is the handiwork of Laini Fondiller, aka Lazy Lady.
http://www.vtcheese.com/vtcheese...y/
lazylady.html
But also, the honey angle is intriguing, and -- sofar -- the local hives are in good shape.
I'm gonna try that next weekend, though -- thanks!
LPR
Hee is some luscious music to go with those scandelous canapé
http://youtube.com/watch?
v=F3O_c...feature=related
Ah yes.
BTW, since we're on the subject, Friday night I was one of many artistes on a dinner that paired music w/ food, so the whole notion's on my mind of late.
http://www.sover.net/~foodsong/food.htm
Interesting, though demonstrated (for me, at least) that people want to talk while they eat.
LPR
Click the link and ignore the typos :-)
LPR, we actually have a
LPR, yes, people do want to talk when they eat together.
My mom used to make the best divinity fudge ever. She did this around Christmas time and when the weather did not cooperate she used to share some very expressive words with us children. Priscilla you bring tears to my eyes.
As to the issue of Father Upton. Father Upton was one of twelve clergy that voted no on the breakaway of DoSJ. The EDoSJ does not recognize now, nor will they ever recognize any such diocese of Southern Cone. Bishop Lamb needed a priest to do supply work at St. Andrews in Taft. He asked Father Upton, still a priest in good standing in the Episcopal Church, if he would do so and Fr. Upton agreed. Those are facts. There may be spin out there but it is just spin.
Before I give it up for the day, I need to share with you all this...
good news...(!)
Today, retiring procession, Hymnal 1982, #518, verse four, "Here vouchsafe to all thy servants what they ask of thee to gain..."
A child danced...a child danced in front of the altar of the Lord...
No...a child "stomped" in front of the altar of our Lord...
he climbed the steps to the altar and danced there...
one of the children of our newest family friggin' *danced* that verse in front of the altar...
his dad and his immigrant spouse were mortified...
I and the rest of our congregaton were entranced, delighted, astounded, etc.
He danced, as David danced before the Ark, he danced before the altar of his Lord!
Praise the Lord, all ye servants of the Lord...
Scott
That is a wonderful stories. We should all dance atthe altar of the Lord-- at least from time to time.
Fred:
Interesting. Fr. Upton is a supply priest for St. James Anglican Church in Lindsey, Ca twice a month, St. Andrew's Episcopal Church, Ca. twice a month and on 5th Sundays he does supply work for other Southern Cone churches. Apparently, he is a priest in good standing in both dioceses.
Is that not strange?
Next Sunday...*I* dance.
Thanks, fRed.
Sorry, left off St. Andrew's Episcopal Church, TAFT, Ca
lori4dogs:
This ma ysound a little like the "emperor thingy" but one cannot supply for a diocese that does not exist. I beleive that, until something definitve happens, there are only Episcopal churches in the diocese of San Joaquin. There is however, a defrocked/deposed Bishop who stands alone. Therefore Fr. Upton can ONLY be a priest in good standing in the Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin.
Oh Fred, look at our spelling. LOL
'Niters (big grateful smile),
My smelling is just fine.
ROFLMAO!
Good night, F.,
Fred Schwartz | 06.30.08 - 1:19 am |
Fred, thank you for clearing that up. I know Fr. Upton.
Fred:
I understand that TEC does not recognize the Anglican churches or diocese in the Central Valley. However, I don't understand why +JDS still has an invitation to Lambeth if he is not considered a legitamate bishop of a diocese in the Anglican Communion.
What am I missing here?
Good night Scott and peace be with you.
Lori, the part I'm missing here is why are you here asking us these questions?
Everything you say tips ever-so slightly toward concerntrollsville.
Slightly.
So what's your deal?
LPR
lori4dogs,
I think you are not missing anything. There is great ambiguity in all of this. He was, xJDS, present and accounted for at GAFCON. Some I do not fully understnad either but I ask questions, get what I think are sound answers and go from there. I do not know what else to do. Each day is somewhat of a sliegh ride but I trust the Lord will not lead me into darkness.
Isn't it ROFLMGAO?
Oh, Well it is in my house anyway...lol.
And gee, seems for a Lutheran you spend a fair amount of time over at Titus 1:9, ie,
Praise the Lord!
Take a look at the websites of the churches approved for Anglican Rite around the country. Our Lady of Atonement in San Antonio, Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston and others. These churches have large memberships that are growing and growing. Our Lady of the Atonement has outgrown their present building and now has plans for an even larger facility. Many in their congregations are people who had walked away from the heresy of the Episcopal Church. Others are people who have been reached by these churches evangelistic outreach.
#3: You say it will never happen. These parishes are an example that it not only can happen but it happens with incredible results. These Anglican Rite parishes are PACKED. Their priests are former TEC. Oh, if only neighboring Episcopal parishes could experience such growth! How is the attendance in your parish??
-------
And elsewhere...(St. V's Cathedral in Ft. Worth)
I am so glad that I left this sick and dying church! The Episcopal Church is losing members in droves. They claim to have about 2.5 million members but they can't show but a few hundred thousand actually filling their pews. The local Episcopal Church in my area has pew space for over 500. On any given Sunday few than thirty are sitting in the pews. On top of that, they won't even sit together!
Amazing how many people who leave this "sick and dying church" just can't seem to keep away.
LPR
LPR
I did not read the post uite that way but upon reflection I see the point.
The issue of Fr. Upton has been discussed here in the dicoese because of the seeming incongruity.
Given all that, what do you think?
I live in the Central Valley. Would love to be part of a faith community which genuinely embraces a gospel of inclusion. The Episcopal churches in my area ARE NOT welcoming to gay people. It seems you have clergy associated with (and I suspect part of) the Southern Cone doing supply work in a Episcopal church in Taft, Ca. I have heard enough of Fr. Eaton's sermons at St. John's, Tulare, Ca to know he is a 'rejectionist' from the word go.
I have long been more at home with the liturgy and theology of the Episcopal Church, especially since the 2003 General Convention. However, I'm not interested in being associated with churches that are Episcopal in name only (which is what I have found to be the case in my area of the Central Valley).
This has been my experience and I have felt comfortable posting that here. I hope I'm welcome to be here.
LPR
RudigerVT,
I'll tell you when a troll is here, and I do not think lori4dogs is a troll.
Tell us about it, Stan...
http://morgue.anglicansonline.or...ters/
index.html
I have read your editorials for some time now as well as the letters you choose to publish concerning the current crisis facing the Episcopal Church. Don't you think your obvious bias for and embrace of "revisionists theology" prevents this website from presenting a fair discussion of TEC's situation?
It will be interesting to see if you move the Episcopal Church's listing to the "Not in the Communion" section of this website come this September.
Stan Bennett
Grace Lutheran Church
Visalia, California, USA
lori4dogs@aol.com
24 February 2007
lori,
Living in Central Florida, I know exactly what you mean about non-excepting Churches.
I know All Too Well!!
Well, David G, if lori4dogs is not a troll there are some really freaky coincidences happening.
Lots of laffs at www.baptistboard.com, too, y'all.
Easy Google search. Go look for yerself.
LPR
LPR
Thanks, sometimes I am just slow as molasses in January.
lori4dogs -- either you lie a lot or you have an evil twin. Share with us, what really is the truth?
I'm guessing that's it for Stan.
Oh well.
LPR
Yea, I think so as well LPR. Busted as a liar and a troll.
Run away, run away!
I love how certain people lie in wait for certain posts, then POUNCE, like a rabid cat at any movement!?!
Sister is thinking about Going Off, but has major patience this evening, ... Thanks to (Christopher :)
I don't scour sites to find out if someone who posts on here is legit or not.
If that is how U spend you're free time,(SIgh!!)
more energy too ya!
I'll just slip into the background....(someplace I'm used to) ...but I certainly won't stay silent
Giggles!!
LPR
Thanks for the lesson, I won't soon forget. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!
Well I wouldn't ever lay claim to an unfailing barometer, but this one was pretty hard to miss. The dogged (har) insistence on veering the conversation back to oddly tangential issues.
I still don't quite get it, what's to be gained by attempting to score points with the likes of us!
LPR
It is late Fred, who knew.
David, no one has to scour the web. lori4dogs is a very unique avatar, so if I place it in the Google box of my Safari browser - bam - all these posts with the same avatar pop up.
Nothing comes up for David G because it is not as unique. Nothing for mine either.
I haven't had divinity in soooooo long. My great aunt Beulah used to make it a lot back in Texas. Recently I found a recipe for it and have wanted to try my hand at candy-making, but it's always so humid up here Providence during the summer that I don't think it would set.
The issue that this person/troll raised sounded like a valid concern. I know that the issue was raised a few days, maybe a week ago and so off I went. I had some other concerns on this issue and so did my own research on it. When it came back a second time I was reasonable prepared. Unfortunately, I had prepared for the wrong question. Just shows to go ya!
Billy, yeah, I think AC is pretty much required for it -- for most candy-making, really. Not my thing (making it). Eating it. mmmmmmm
LPR
Buenas noches a tod@s.
I shall leave the night owls to their thing. I am very sleepy and my bed is gently calling my name.
I'm a workin' on it, David -- noches!
LPR
^final throes of preparing an online course that starts, eh, today.
Okay fine, I'll just STFU!!
Good night.
"There's no place like home. There is no place like home. There is no place like home. There is no place...
Oh,... this is for the Father Jake's Police: Take A Bow(Seamus Haji & Paul Emanuel Club Mix) - Rihanna
Just being my usual DJ self!
Granny came back tonight, ...no thanks to my ex-commuting father :{
So....
YIKES!!
Well anyway, ...I'll Survive!!
Re: Priscilla | 06.29.08 - 12:10 pm:
I had a scholar friend who used to like to say: "There hasn't been a thunping good new heresy for 1,500 years. We just recycle the old ones."
I'm okay,...but my mind is reeling!!
No wonder my mindset is psych centered, with such a family...(giggles).
Since 2:55, Granny and Dad have been home. ...Dad lives 2 blocks away, but chose to spend his night here,..(one wonders why with 2 ~ 2&1/2 year olds running around).
I think DAD was drunk when he ...WTF was NY STATE THINKING??!??
NY must be a desperate State..yikes!!
I still don't understand their decision.
IF something happens to my Father & Step-Mother,..I am NOT going to raise my....{unknown so-called brothers) ...No Thank You GOD!!!
NOT!!
but with my luck, that is what will happen.
Thanks, LPR.
I've wondered about that one for awhile.
Good lesson here folks. Some wear masks. Google is your friend.
Kneels down.
I'm genuinely confused. What is the realtionship of FOCA to the rest of the Communion to be? They say they will not recognise the authority of bishops who disagree with them, but that would mean virtually all of the rest of the communion: not just North America, but Australia (apart from Sydney of course), New Zealand, Brazil, possibly Central America, the Church in Wales, Scotland, and large chunks of the Church of England. How exactly does FOCA (tee hee) intend to relate to everybody else in the Communion?
MGR--I think the answer is: They don't. They have, again, thrown down the, My way or the highway, gauntlet. As Jake said, Don't know whether to laugh or weep. I think some of their psychology behind this is the, "We will be Anglican" mindset. There is now the really big issue (at least in my mind) of how much automony are individual churches, such as those in San Joaquin, willing to give up to be a part of this since complete capitulation seems to be the only agenda offered by Foca or gafCON or whatever the heck they are calling themselves. I'll bet the answer is "none."
Sorry. That should be "MRG."
David G.--Hugs and prayers for you. Is there any possible way that you can get respite care at a hospice or care facility for your Granny once in awhile? Apologies in advance if this is a really stupid question.
On the Church Times blog Peter Jensen is reported as explaining the relationship between Gafcon and the rest of the communion in these terms:
'Asked if GAFCON had created a separate Church, to all intents and purposes, Dr Jensen said:”Does that lead to separate communions or denominations? No. The network is going to look a bit different, and clearly the Primates’s Council is going to operate as a new centre of authority within the Anglican Communion. But it doesn’t presume to have all authority.
Nor was it a “church within a church”: “I don’t like that expression”, Dr Jensen said. “because, first of all, I don’t think the Anglican Communion is a ‘Church’, and secondly, because I don’t think what we’ve created here is a Church.” A better parallel was with the Anglo-Catholic movement in the 19th century, or the Evangelical movement of the 18th. It was a “spiritual movement . . . a missionary movement.”
A key indication of whether or not this is a split will be continuing communion with those outside the new fellowship. Dr Jensen was adamant: in the Church of Australia, he said, “many of the other bishops would not sign this or be part of this movement. But am I out of fellowship with them? No. That would be a very serious thing for me, if any suggestion were made that I had somehow broken away from the Anglican Church of Australia. I certainly haven’t done so.”
http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/blo...me.asp?
id=50222
Does that help?
It's a "spiritual revival" based upon fear and revulsion: the big ick about teh gay. That's all they have in common. And they/you have sooooooo much that is sooooo not in common, which we're all papering over right now.
Talk about your strange bedfellows.
LPR
Obadiah Slope--And then there is this from another one of your countrymen:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion...tn.html?page=-
1
Yep, read it. Odd that it ran in The Age and not the SMH.
Kirby interviewed by Monica Attard on ABC radio
Have you ever sought to sit down with Archbishop Peter Jensen and discuss the issue of the Church's position on homosexuality with him?
MICHAEL KIRBY: Sit down would put it a little high. I've certainly corresponded with the Archbishop. He's a very interesting and highly intelligent man, of course, and he's also a Church historian, which is an aspect of Anglicanism that interests me.
http://www.abc.net.au/sundayprof...es/
s2106109.htm
Here's Monday of a new week, and a couple of thoughts for Obadiah Slope.
1) The future of GAFcon's proposed "orthodox" province of North America is likely to be about as significant to Anglicanism as the present of the "Church of England in South Africa," namely, not very. The CESA is an allegedly Anglican body that is recognized and supported by only one Anglican jurisdiction in the world, not even a whole province. That jurisdiction is, of course, your own Diocese of Sydney. CESA is a tiny pimple on the Anglican body politic.
2) I think questions can legitimately be raised about to the extent to which Archbishop Akinola, and possibly some other African primates, can accurately be said to "represent" the people of their provinces. Akinola is a prime example of the "big man" method of episcopacy. Bishops of the Church of Nigeria are elected by the House of Bishops, in which priests and deacons and more especially lay people have no vote. Moreover, at least one observer tells me that the House of Bishops almost invariably elects the bishops the primate tells them to.
I suspect the mind and piety of the Church of Nigeria is to be found far more clearly in the church's Mothers' Union that in the blatherings of the Nigerian House of Bishops, Archbishop Akinola, or his anointed spokesman, the formerly Venerable (I think now Right Reverend) AkinTunde Popoola. But when did you last read an interview with a leader of the Mothers' Union? Never, I'll bet, because no journalist ever talks to the Mothers' Union.
"A key indication of whether or not this is a split will be continuing communion with those outside the new fellowship. Dr Jensen was adamant: in the Church of Australia, he said, “many of the other bishops would not sign this or be part of this movement. But am I out of fellowship with them? No. That would be a very serious thing for me, if any suggestion were made that I had somehow broken away from the Anglican Church of Australia. I certainly haven’t done so.”
Doubletalk.
This "movement" was born of hate. Hate for anything that is not "one of them" as clearly defined by "the council of primates." It thrives on hate, hate for TEC, hate for the Canadian Church, hate for LGBT, hate for anyone that disagrees with them including the Archbishop of Cantebury. It sustains itself on the basis of power and money in that it loves money and cannot stand being out of the limelight. It thirves on "numbers", we represent the largest single majority of Anglicnas in the world. Like somehow, if we had one more person than they did we would be in the right and they would be wrong. It's core belief is that if you say something long and loud enough it must be true, or at least everyone will believe you. It attacks only those churches with money and that can garner significant press time. It has found a way, at least it thinks it has, of being anti-women, anti-gay, anti-mercy, anti-peace and anti-culture. The council is now formed, and you too can join if you bring a large dicoese or parish with you and sufficient funds to support these folks in the growing lifestyle they have become accostomed to.
So, what is it we have? We have a group of people that would rather spew hate than figure out how to be merciful that thrives on big money and lots of press adualtion. I suggest they rename the Council of Primates the "Sanhedrin". ++Akinola can be the High Priest.
Obadiahslope, you have a blind spot in your rear view mirror.
trueanglican, the CESA was evidently represented at GAFCON; their Presiding Bishop signed an agreement with two Anglican African Bishops to take over a CofE parish in the Algarve.
Amen Fred. Pretty much sums it up. Except I'm not sure they even have a rear view mirror.
It might be time to have a Welcome Home the Prodigal Sons, Sunday. I can't believe any one used to the autonomy of TEC is going to buy into this.
Lynn, I forgot to mention that your electrical storms are like nothing I've ever seen. The night lights up like day, and all hell breaks loose. Very cool for a kid. Very cool about Martin's Additions, too.
Fred, I won't "go quietly into that good night," either. Conservatives need a bit of resistance.
JCF, prayers for Harry. A very special, gifted, man. I hope things will soon go better for him.
Bonnie, I can't figure out what a "confessing Anglican" is. Does it mean anything, or, as you suggested, just a love of that high-falootin'-sounding word, "Anglican?"
Some wear masks - Jake
Most "conservatives" wear masks of one sort or another when dealing with "the other side." You see it on Internet forums and radio call-in shows ("I'm a liberal," "I'm neutral," even "I support gay rights," etc.). You see it when they cozy up and shamelessly list their good deeds ad infinitum. You see it in deceptive "abortion clinic" advertisements. It's the ol' wolf in sheep's clothing ploy. It's dishonest, but that's what they are. You even see it in "conservative" candidates for the Supreme Court. Take John Roberts, who assured the Congress of his impartiality prior to his appointment.
Okay, I confess, the latter part of this comment is an elaborate (but truthful) set up for sharing something that amused me no end this morning: John Roberts quoted Dylan in a dissent last Monday, but he got the lyric wrong. When it comes to double negatives, he ain't got nothin'. The article also notes that Dylan is the most-cited songwriter in the lower courts!
Here's an wonderful and univeral sentiment from someone whose works just might not be on your usual reading list.
"Here is a benediction that can give all the time without being impoverished. Every heart may utter it, every letter may conclude with it, every day may begin with it, every night may be sanctified by it. Here is blessing — keeping — shining — the uplifting upon our poor life of all heaven’s glad morning. It is the Lord Himself who [gives us] this bar of music from heaven’s infinite anthem. - Dwight L. Moody, Notes from My Bible"
The Lord bless you and keep you
The Lord lift His countenance upon you,
And give you peace, and give you peace;
The Lord make His face to shine upon you,
And be gracious, and be gracious;
The Lord be gracious, gracious unto you.
(Words & Music: Peter C. Lutkin, 1858-1931)
The ABC has now weighed in on the GAFCON statement according to Thinking Anglicans -- Archbishop responds to GAFCON statement:
***
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has responded to the final declaration of the Global Anglican Future Conference with the following statement:
The Final Statement from the GAFCON meeting in Jordan and Jerusalem contains much that is positive and encouraging about the priorities of those who met for prayer and pilgrimage in the last week. The ‘tenets of orthodoxy’ spelled out in the document will be acceptable to and shared by the vast majority of Anglicans in every province, even if there may be differences of emphasis and perspective on some issues. I agree that the Communion needs to be united in its commitments on these matters, and I have no doubt that the Lambeth Conference will wish to affirm all these positive aspects of GAFCON’s deliberations. Despite the claims of some, the conviction of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as Lord and God and the absolute imperative of evangelism are not in dispute in the common life of the Communion
However, GAFCON’s proposals for the way ahead are problematic in all sorts of ways, and I urge those who have outlined these to think very carefully about the risks entailed.
A ‘Primates’ Council’ which consists only of a self-selected group from among the Primates of the Communion will not pass the test of legitimacy for all in the Communion. And any claim to be free to operate across provincial boundaries is fraught with difficulties, both theological and practical – theological because of our historic commitments to mutual recognition of ministries in the Communion, practical because of the obvious strain of responsibly exercising episcopal or primatial authority across enormous geographical and cultural divides.
Two questions arise at once about what has been proposed. By what authority are Primates deemed acceptable or unacceptable members of any new primatial council? And how is effective discipline to be maintained in a situation of overlapping and competing jurisdictions?
No-one should for a moment impute selfish or malicious motives to those who have offered pastoral oversight to congregations in other provinces; these actions, however we judge them, arise from pastoral and spiritual concern. But one question has repeatedly been raised which is now becoming very serious: how is a bishop or primate in another continent able to discriminate effectively between a genuine crisis of pastoral relationship and theological integrity, and a situation where there are underlying non-theological motivations at work? We have seen instances of intervention in dioceses whose leadership is unquestionably orthodox simply because of local difficulties of a personal and administrative nature. We have also seen instances of clergy disciplined for scandalous behaviour in one jurisdiction accepted in another, apparently without due process. Some other Christian churches have unhappy experience of this problem and it needs to be addressed honestly.
It is not enough to dismiss the existing structures of the Communion. If they are not working effectively, the challenge is to renew them rather than to improvise solutions that may seem to be effective for some in the short term but will continue to create more problems than they solve. This challenge is one of the most significant focuses for the forthcoming Lambeth Conference. One of its major stated aims is to restore and deepen confidence in our Anglican identity. And this task will require all who care as deeply as the authors of the statement say they do about the future of Anglicanism to play their part.
The language of ‘colonialism’ has been freely used of existing patterns. No-one is likely to look back with complacency to the colonial legacy. But emerging from the legacy of colonialism must mean a new co-operation of equals, not a simple reversal of power. If those who speak for GAFCON are willing to share in a genuine renewal of all our patterns of reflection and decision-making in the Communion, they are welcome, especially in the shaping of an effective Covenant for our future together.
I believe that it is wrong to assume we are now so far apart that all those outside the GAFCON network are simply proclaiming another gospel. This is not the case; it is not the experience of millions of faithful and biblically focused Anglicans in every province. What is true is that, on all sides of our controversies, slogans, misrepresentations and caricatures abound. And they need to be challenged in the name of the respect and patience we owe to each other in Jesus Christ.
I have in the past quoted to some in the Communion who would call themselves radical the words of the Apostle in I Cor.11.33: ‘wait for one another’. I would say the same to those in whose name this statement has been issued. An impatience at all costs to clear the Lord’s field of the weeds that may appear among the shoots of true life (Matt.13.29) will put at risk our clarity and effectiveness in communicating just those evangelical and catholic truths which the GAFCON statement presents.
© Rowan Williams
***
Lynn, is this your blessing?
Numbers 6:24-26 (NRSV)
The Lord bless you and keep you;
the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.
Saint Paul Cathedral Choir: The Lord Bless You and Keep You
A firm statement coming from ++Rowan Cantuar. What a wonderful change!
trueanglican,
Lets wait and see how important the North Americn province turns out to be. I suspect we won't have to wait long.
CESA has been one of the big winners from GAFCON. They are on the way to being recognised by a number of provinces.
The Mother's Union was present at Gafcon in force.
I agree they are a largely untold story.
An account of the Mother's union in East Africa focussed on the role of the Bishop's wives - I think the African mother's unions do great work but i doubt they see themselves in opposition to their bishops in general.
It's a good statement and reminds us that for better or worse we belong to Christ and in him belong to one another and ought to pray for one another rather than be provocative.
I do believe the GAFCon's have finally angered ++Rowan Cantuar. It's about time!
dr.primrose--Thanks. I was wondering he would respond at all. I see some problems with his statement such as this:
"I agree that the Communion needs to be united in its commitments on these matters, and I have no doubt that the Lambeth Conference will wish to affirm all these positive aspects of GAFCON’s deliberations."
I am not sure about this because it is unclear as to who "some" are.
"Despite the claims of some, the conviction of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as Lord and God and the absolute imperative of evangelism are not in dispute in the common life of the Communion"
This at least shows some gumption:
"However, GAFCON’s proposals for the way ahead are problematic in all sorts of ways, and I urge those who have outlined these to think very carefully about the risks entailed."
And as for this:
"What is true is that, on all sides of our controversies, slogans, misrepresentations and caricatures abound. And they need to be challenged in the name of the respect and patience we owe to each other in Jesus Christ."
Biting my tongue. But, I don't think TEC is guilty of the slogans, misrepresentations and caricatures.
You want Rowan? You can have him! ;-)
Having done nothing to heal the rift in the church that has grown over the last decade, who cares what Canterbury thinks, says or does? Of course the legitimacy of the Primates' Council will not be recognized by the entire Communion. That is what GAFCON was all about. And to say, with a straight face, that the entire Communion would subscribe to the statement of faith contained in the Jerusalem statement proves, beyond a doubt, that the AB is clueless.
fs--I think when all of this started there was that, "You/we, (not them, meaning us) are the TRUE Anglicans." That had a lot of appeal. But the truth is, as has been repeatedly pointed out, Anglican simply means being in Communion with the See of Canterbury. But for whatever reason the word is magical in their minds and the GAFCONS/Focas have to keep that out there. What happened in Jerusalem is just a reprise of the same ole stuff they have been spouting for years w/the addition of we will be a communion within the communion. But even this is not really new. They have been trying to stack the deck in their favor in-house for quite awhile. I think they are waiting for our next General Convention to see if we will tip ourselves out. Somehow they have to keep dangling the ANGLICAN bait in the meantime.
I think ++Rowan is very naive if he doesn't think they are after his head and no matter how much he would like to make this work, it won't happen. But who knows, maybe he likes clasping vipers to his bosom.
Also, I need some prayers for a family member who is going to have a very stressful and ugly time the next few days. Prayers for grace and strength for him and for the light of truth for those who are trying to throw him under a bus. No matter what he will end up being OK but I just hate to see him have to go through this alone. And prayers will be appreciated.
High vitriol at T1:9 and SFIF about the ABC's statement. (But, then, everything at T1:9 and SFIF operates at the high vitriol level.) Much of the focus of the vitriol appears to be charges of self-interested job protection.
Dr. Primrose, are you saying that Jake's place doesn't operate at high vitriol? If so, I'd have to disagree based on what I've seen; the dudgeon is consistently high here. The recipes do help to calm folks down some, however.
If you're angering both sides it might mean you're on to something...
KJS has also issued a response to the GAFCON statement, according to ENS:
***
Much of the Anglican world must be lamenting the latest emission from GAFCON. Anglicanism has always been broader than some find comfortable. This statement does not represent the end of Anglicanism, merely another chapter in a centuries-old struggle for dominance by those who consider themselves the only true believers. Anglicans will continue to worship God in their churches, serve the hungry and needy in their communities, and build missional relationships with others across the globe, despite the desire of a few leaders to narrow the influence of the gospel. We look forward to the opportunities of the Lambeth Conference for constructive conversation, inspired prayer, and relational encounters.
The Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori
Presiding Bishop and Primate
The Episcopal Church
***
I think the word "emission" is particularly well chosen ...
I'm sure the vitriol toward KJS from Those Places will be much higher than the vitriol directed to the ABC.
Now, if only the ABC could have been this clear three plus years ago. I guess it just took telling him he was redundant to get his Welsh blood boiling?
As for Lori4dogs, what the hell did I miss? I never saw her trolling, ever.
Paul III, there are perhaps 3-4 folks here who, in my opinion, operate a high vitriol level. By and large, I don't read what they have to say because it's not worth my time to do so. Otherwise, I find most of the postings here fairly thoughtful, even if I don't agree with them. (And since my theology is more "conservative" than many who post here, there's some fair amount of stuff that I don't particularly agree with.)
I find the situation reversed at Those Other Sites. There are a few folks who make interesting comments. Most of it, however, if snarky, gotcha type of comments that the posters have made over and over again. Not new; not interesting; not thoughtful; not particuarly Christian. It's just not worthy my time to sift through all that chaff to see if there's any worthwhile wheat over there.
Prayers for Bonnie's family member, for Bonnie, and for her family.
*respectful pause*
Here's the PB's response to GAFCON (hee! Typed "GAFCONE"):
http://episcopalchurch.typepad.c...atement-
by.html
Much of the Anglican world must be lamenting the latest emission from GAFCON. Anglicanism has always been broader than some find comfortable. This statement does not represent the end of Anglicanism, merely another chapter in a centuries-old struggle for dominance by those who consider themselves the only true believers. Anglicans will continue to worship God in their churches, serve the hungry and needy in their communities, and build missional relationships with others across the globe, despite the desire of a few leaders to narrow the influence of the gospel. We look forward to the opportunities of the Lambeth Conference for constructive conversation, inspired prayer, and relational encounters.
"The latest emission..." Yes, a lot of hot air, contributing to global warming!
Prayers for Bonnies "family memeber" going through difficulties...prayers for TEC and The Anglican Communion as we continue to get STRONGER even in the face of thiving bigots scratching at our wholesome souls to get, get, get...actually, it's exactly what ought happen when we're challenged...there is no sense worrying extra much about dishonest blowhards...they will blow themselves out (and a few demented suckers/followers along the way might figure out how to become personally accountable for the crimes of HATE and OUTCASTING they have helped perpetuate).
Of course the legitimacy of the Primates' Council will not be recognized by the entire Communion. Dan
It's grandiosity/arrogance in the extreme to think that many emotionally/spiritually healthy Anglicans/Christians/others would even give a rats as* about these hate/fear mongering greedy whiners in mitres. Just because someone financed this break-away-from-within-junk doesn't mean it is believeable to anyone but the authors.
As for Lori4dogs, what the hell did I miss? I never saw her trolling, ever.
James | 06.30.08 - 2:44 pm
James, if you Google lori4dogs, you will find that "she" is a he;
Stan Bennett
Grace Lutheran Church
Visalia, California, USA
who is an orthodox/conservative reasserter who left TEC for the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and says all sorts of rubbish about TEC on other blogs.
Bonnie,
A prayer just sent up for your family member, you and all who are affected by the troubling situation.
God's love and blessings on all of you.
Thank you, David.
Prayers for your family member, Bonnie. It sounds like a most unpleasant situation. May the peace and love of the Lord provide shelter and comfort during this painful time.
Leonardo, Mary Beth, Lynn and fs--Thank you so much.
Could we pause for a second re "lori4dogs"? I'm having a GREAT deal of trouble balancing the TEC-bashing Misery-Synod Lutheran who's been Googled, w/
I live in the Central Valley. Would love to be part of a faith community which genuinely embraces a gospel of inclusion. The Episcopal churches in my area ARE NOT welcoming to gay people. It seems you have clergy associated with (and I suspect part of) the Southern Cone doing supply work in a Episcopal church in Taft, Ca. I have heard enough of Fr. Eaton's sermons at St. John's, Tulare, Ca to know he is a 'rejectionist' from the word go.
I have long been more at home with the liturgy and theology of the Episcopal Church, especially since the 2003 General Convention. However, I'm not interested in being associated with churches that are Episcopal in name only (which is what I have found to be the case in my area of the Central Valley).
...which sounds entirely credible!
Isn't it possible someone else is using "Stan's" computer? Like, perhaps, a spouse/child/friend/colleague who is the *polar opposite* of the repulsive Googled person?
To someone who posted the SJ quote above, couldn't we to give the benefit of the doubt?
[Re GAFCON: I.Simply.Could.Not.Care.Less. God have mercy upon them---upon us ALL---and let us Episcopalians Move On w/ the work of the Gospel?]
Dr. Primrose, while there are many thoughtful statements here and at the other sites, I would say that this site and the others are sites at which the respective choirs preach to each other, convince themselves that they are always right, and the others always wrong, and do little to advance discourse and reconciliation. I know that Jake wants this to be a safe place; cocoons are safe also, but at some point one has to emerge and face the world and be willing to engage what's outside. The failure to do that is the primary shortcoming of this site and any blog that is designed to cater to a particular point of view. Hence it is safe here to demonize and denigrate "them" and uplift "us."
Paul III, how, may I ask, is your statement any different from what you accuse everyone else of doing? How does your pointing out the "failure" of this site, accusing us of "preaching to the choir" and hiding from those who disagree further any kind of discourse and reconciliation?
Starting from the judgement seat and speaking over us all to Dr. Primrose as if we are lesser beings listening to a higher source hardly encourages strangers to seek discourse and reconciliation with you or the side you represent.
I cannot speak for others but your erroneous assumption that those of us who congregate here do so in a vacuum is based in nothing but poor conjecture. I am aware of several regulars here at Jake's place that engage, or at least attempt to engage, quite regularly in discourse at other sites that hold very opposite viewpoints.
There are also numerous postings from a great variety of people which speak to their efforts, struggles, pain, and sometimes even victories at discourse and reconciliation within there real-world communities.
Your statements were not helpful, IMHO.
Pax
Priscilla, sorry if you found my comments unhelpful. My comment was to the general nature of blog sites such as this. I agree that there are many thoughtful discussions. Many of all persuasions have thoughtful discussions, but there are those who are quick to shout down dissenting voices and move to invective.
As to your question of how my comment is any different? Obviously not as different as I think. I am share with you my observations and the vexation I experience when reading this blog, T19, SF and others that, quite apart from the discussions of experience, are the insistence on party lines that dominate each site. Jake has made it clear who isn't welcome here; those who dare to defend ++Katharine on the SF site are routinely shouted down. That's what I find vexing.
Paul III, thank you for your response. I agree that blog reading can be maddening on many levels. The same criticisms are leveled at the political blogs I regularly attend as well. I suppose the blogosphere is not living up to its potential as cyberspace town square because it is too ghettoized in many respects. I like to hope that there are many lurkers who read thoughtful posts from both sides and talk about what they've encountered in real time.
Pax
lori4dogs said...
I am so glad that I left this sick and dying church! The Episcopal Church is losing members in droves. They claim to have about 2.5 million members but they can't show but a few hundred thousand actually filling their pews. The local Episcopal Church in my area has pew space for over 500. On any given Sunday few than thirty are sitting in the pews. On top of that, they won't even sit together!
lori4dogs Says:
February 18th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Praise the Lord! Take a look at the websites of the churches approved for Anglican Rite around the country. Our Lady of Atonement in San Antonio, Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston and others. These churches have large memberships that are growing and growing. Our Lady of the Atonement has outgrown their present building and now has plans for an even larger facility. Many in their congregations are people who had walked away from the heresy of the Episcopal Church. Others are people who have been reached by these churches evangelistic outreach.
Believe what you want JCF.
Thank you Priscilla. I suppose that if my Real Job didn't get in the way I could devote more time to composing thoughtful responses myself. I'm very eloquent in my own mind and I too infrequently live up to my inner eloquence when I wade into the bloggy waters. Sort of like the shock I receive when I see a picture of myself when in my mind's eye I'm still thinner and have more hair than the photo chooses to share.
It’s interesting that there has been reasonable length coverage of the end of GAFCon on UK BBC news programmes. The line they’ve taken is that this represents - essentially - the expansion to Anglican churches other than TEC and the ACC of the same parish-grabbing and appointing of “orthodox” bishops to Churches that have ”gone astray". And that that will definitely include the CofE. (They’ve been showing clips of highly Anglo-Catholic goings-on in the church where the recent “same sex marriage” occurred; combined with one of their priests reinforcing the “broad church” approach.)
Perhaps this is what has brought it home to +++Rowan? Hence this new statement which is relatively strong. (Actually, I think he’s been pretty sussed on what’s been going on and has played his hand "with the wisdom of snakes..." )
(däˈvēd - just an aside OT - thank you for posting the Rutter link. That is one of my favorite compositions of that text. But I guess you probably picked up on my love for Rutter's wworks).
I saw the quotes, Daveed. I agree: they're execrable.
...but that doesn't address my question: while admittedly "lori4dogs" sounds like a single computer handle, couldn't multiple persons be using the same computer? [I know of too many cases where this has occurred]
Maybe lori4dogs could explain to use wtf is going on. The fact that s/he disappeared as soon as these comments surfaced doesn't help the case for innocent misunderstanding, though.
us, not use - PIMF
Obidiahslope claimed upthread: "The maths is simple. Add up the number of anglicans represented by the primates in jerusalem, and you get more than half the communion.
"Of course the numbers do not mean the Gafconites were right, simply that a lot of the communion had a stake in what has taken place."
Let me just add that the primates in Jerusalem "represent" a majority of the Anglican Communion in the same way that Robert Mugabe "represents" thirteen and a half million Zimbabweans.
Maybe the proposed Anglican Covenant should include a provision that bishops in any council can have voting rights only if they were elected to office by lay representatives who were not beholden to them. There needs to be a balance against the arrogance of the merely anointed.
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