The excommunication documents and correspondence in English translation may be found here:
http://www.zindamagazine.com/htm...5/
index_sat.php
I will leave you to wade through it.
Interestingly, Byzantine Jesuit and much respected liturgist Father Robert Taft delivered the following rather supportive address in Mar Yosyp Cathedral in Cali just days ago:
http://
www.americancatholicpress..._Mar_Bawai.html
That's a lot to take in! From Googling it seems he really pushed union with Rome and the patriarch baulked. Am I right? The other accusations sound like politicking/excuses to sack him (like companies' lame excuses for firing people: 'poor communications skills', 'he wanted to spend more time with his family').
Taft is weird - he doesn't like traditionalists and praises the so-called RC 'renewal' 40 years ago. The kind of (pseudo-) Easterner AmChurch people like ('oh, I love icons', pretty pictures they don't really understand). Cool and exotic, the East is safely foreign enough to keep at a distance unlike the trads in their own culture.
BTW Assyrians/Nestorians often have no images other than plain crosses, which has led some Protestants to mistake them for long-lost brethren of their faith. No, it only means their tradition is older than the use of images and they don't oppose images in principle. As you can see from the bishop's picture in your blog the vesture is Eastern standard, fairly similar in many of the rites (the full chasuble ends up looking like a Western cope - certainly true of the one the bishop's wearing).
Taft is one fellow I have never understood and have given up trying. I can't tell if he is eccentric or just a Jesuit.
The man is smarter than a rocket scientist and has forgotten more minutiae on things I have never heard of in languages I will never speak than things I will ever know.
Having said that, I sometimes think his smarts and his sense are at odds. Like really rich people with really bad taste. Custom-crafter heirloom quality sporks anyone?
For good or ill, even the Orthodox out there (who are inclined to look outside their own tradition) generally hold him in high regard. The difference between a liturgist and a historian, can be a matter of opinion I guess. Enter Father David Petras of the BCC.
From wading through all that, I tend to agree with your assesment on the Mar B. He seems to have been the prime-mover and shaker in efforts to reconcile with Rome in, from what I can gather, efforts that he envisioned were especially urgent in light of modern scholarship and the "diaspora" situation.
Let's face it, when the Assyrians vacate "Assyria" and your patriarch of all the East is the Patriarch of Chicago (if not in name, at least in address), and the Oriental Orthodox block your efforts to join the Middle Eastern Council of Churches on the grounds they are disinterested in sitting at table with "Nestorians"... well some amount of soul searching and concearn over "where you fit in" is easy to understand. I know you are not mad about Soloviev, but some of what Vladimir wrote in Russia and the Universal Church on the face of it seems to resonate with the Roman educated Mar B.
Apparently, his assesment of "where to fit in" and the Patriarch's did not jibe.
(For the record I always thought it was cool America had a real, live - if little known - Eastern patriarch in the midwest. Fun trivia for those who always thought the only Patriarchs to be found were vagantes and the prime bishop of charismatic episcopalians!)
The other ostensible reaons for excommunication do, on the face of it, seem like bologna/code-speak.
So far I have not been able to determine that the Chaldeans are actually taking him up on the offer. This all may be premature...
Being that nothing on the world ecumenical scene like this goes unnoticed, one is left to wonder what the ramifications of this episode will be for Rome, the Assyrians, and other Eastern Churches.
I would say that right there is the $64,000 question.
Say one more thing. Mention is made of Mar B's "two English congregations" and I seem to vaguely remember (maybe?) hearing about some references made to the Church of the East having possibly taken in some non-Assyrian communities in. (Think "Evangelical Orthodox Church.") I have noticed on Mar B's blog a number of photos of youth events with youths that look rather caucasian (That mean's nothing, people have boyfriends and girlfriends...)
I would be extrememly interested to find out what and who the "English congregations" are and their history...
I asked Katherine about that at your place - she brought it up there. She said they're ex-Anglicans so I asked if they use the Assyrian Rite or something Anglican like most Western Rite Orthodox do.
From a newly registered poster on Catholic Answers.
BTW Assyrians/Nestorians often have no images other than plain crosses, which has led some Protestants to mistake them for long-lost brethren of their faith. No, it only means their tradition is older than the use of images and they don't oppose images in principle.
I have heard that this may have something to do with the icons having been lost through restriction of images imposed by Islam. I have, however, no idea the veracity of these claims.
Hey Guys,
I am one of the many thousand faithful Christians supporting the stance taken by Mar Bawai. I must make it clear that Mar Bawai is a Vatican educated scholar having earnt his PhD and recently published his thesis which you can find on his blog. His special area of study has been the Church of the East. His courage and determination will not go un-noticed. The issue has been brewing wild over the past two years ever since his illegal suspension from the Assyrian Synod.
As many of you have already mentioned correctly, Mar Bawai's views on Papal Supremacy (as per the writing of our Church forefathers) contradicted the autonomy the Assyrian Church prelates enjoyed. Therefore they found a convenient way to sideline him and get rid of him. The Chicago based "Patriach of the Orient" chose to ignor the adultry of his bishop in arizona (mar aprem khamis) with a pakistani muslim woman (yasmin khan) or the involvement of his australian bishop (mar meelis zaia) in a ponzi investment scheme which cost innocent Assyrians over $160m (karl suleman enterprises). Both these two cases are widely documented online with zindamagazine.com the most proactive periodical reporting such issues.
Problems started when Mar Bawai refused to sign a decree in 2001 which pardoned the bishop of arizona for his affair with this muslim women. Mar Bawai stressed the sunhados or canon laws of the Church would be violated and such a decree was less dogmatic and more political. Mar Bawai was also very vocal in pursuing unity between the Chaldeans Catholics and Assyrians both spiritually and socially. The issue become even more important as the Christian community in Iraq found itself facing extinction.
The English congregations were established by HH Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII, the late Patriach, who was exiled from Iraq and moved to the USA temporarily. They are and have always been part of the Church of the East and have enjoyed a sense of autonomy over the years, particularly after the murder of Mar Shimun in the late 70s.
Nevertheless, the Assyrians who have chosen to join the Catholic Church are doing so out of complete freewill. They recognise the Pope as the head of the Church and want to be part of a body which values accountability, reform and unity. You will find all the clergy supporting the decree to join Rome are educated, respected and highly regarded within their respective diocese.
Yours In Christ,
Sydneydude
Welcome and thanks for that history.
Long story short the bishop and his people are convinced of Rome's claims.
Here is another conversation on this diocese (along with beautiful pictures of Coptic worship).
I wonder if the patriarch claims the church property in California - are there court cases? Interestingly in the same place the Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin (conservative: middle-of-the-road churchmen led by an Anglo-Catholic bishop) left the Episcopal Church in December for the Anglican province based in southern South America and the Episcopalians are getting ready to sue to get the buildings.
Is there a 'Remain Assyrian' minority in ACAD like the Episcopalian one in the San Joaquin valley?
There is no real estate issue. All Church properties have been returned to the Assyrian Church of the East (ACOE).
ACAD brings with it only faith, fellowship, prayers and hope for unity.
Are most of the people with ACAD or with ACOE?
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