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+1 for Greg Popcak being a good man whose beautiful family is the proof of his pudding (and please don't take my vouchsafing to be a mark against his character).
victor | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 1:06 pm | #

If you feel the need to try, sentence and execute either of them in the court of public opinion, please find somewhere else to do it as I have neither the time nor the inclination to adjudicate such matters.

As for Mr. West's presentation in the Youtube clip featured on this post, my verdict is "Jolly Good Show and three hip-hip-hoorahs!"

Splendid stuff! Just what the doctor ordered. Heartily recommend to all.

~~~
Marion (Mael Muire) | 05.13.09 - 1:15 pm | #

The only valid criticism of Popcak I heard was here from John Paul the Great and he was man enough to correct himself:

http://www.audiosancto.org/auweb...ony-and- NFP.mp3

Unfortunately, West's style made it too easy to ABC to make us all look foolish:

http://maryvictrix.wordpress.com...he-magnificent/
Tim | 05.13.09 - 1:18 pm | #

I've been reading some of this dustup in various Catholic blogs the last few days, but when I viewed this video I had to scratch my head and wonder what on earth was the big deal. I thought it was actually a very insightful illustration to bring Hefner into the mix in discussing lust, Christian views on sexuality and TOTB concepts.

Color me puzzled.
Ragamuffin | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 1:29 pm | #

Good for you for standing up for Christopher West, Mark.
Tony | 05.13.09 - 1:37 pm | #

Why do we Catholics so often bayonet our own troops?

A question I frequently ask.
Dave G. | 05.13.09 - 1:41 pm | #

Okay, now I can see why people got mad about what West said, because it could be inferred that he was applauding Hefner's pornographic work. I can't believe for a moment that that is what he meant based on everything else he's written, but taken out of context, that's what it sounds like. I think West would be wise to take the advice of some great sage who quoted out of context and when asked what he learned from the experience, he said, "Don't give long interviews."
Judith M. | 05.13.09 - 1:59 pm | #

This whole thing is silly. Everyone knows what West meant.
Pansy Moss | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 2:29 pm | #

There are two important points to clarify for the people who are eager to get critical of Christopher West.

The first and most important one, as other have stated, is read his work, or view his videos and see what he actually says and measure how that fits with the CCC.

The second point is only slightly less important. Unlike Alice Von Hildebrand and other professors of theology, Christopher West really is just an 'average guy' and an average Catholic Dad. The reason he is on Night Line is that people are listening to him! He can actually communicate with real everyday men who don't study theology or read Catholic blogs all day! Part of that is he talks the way they talk - he doesn't nuance every statement to death to make sure it builds the soundest theological argument. He isn't a scholastic debating scholars. His mission is to get the message of "The Theology of the Body" out to ordinary people and I think he does a very decent job of that.
GNW_Paul | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 3:04 pm | #

Mark,

Thank you!!! I've been increasingly upset over the 'trial' of West since his Nightline appearance. It's good to see you have kept your sanity about this.
Rusty | 05.13.09 - 3:12 pm | #

"Why do we Catholics so often bayonet our own troops?"

Because the front line is everywhere.
John F. Triolo | 05.13.09 - 3:13 pm | #

This whole thing is silly. Everyone knows what West meant.

You would think so. You would think so.

But recall that in the preface to the later editions of The Screwtape Letters (in which a senior devil instructs a junior in the art to tempting men), author C.S. Lewis recounts that he received a letter from a country parson, complaining that "the advice you have given in your book, sir, is what no Christian should give to another, and in places seemed entirely diabolical!" (not an exact quote.)

A lot of people don't process what they hear and read, and completely miss the point. 180 degrees off base.

If it happened to C.S. Lewis, it could happen to Mr. West.

~~~~
Marion (Mael Muire) | 05.13.09 - 3:17 pm | #

What I am really scandalized by is that Mark has never read Chris West. How many books does he have on the top of the Amazon Catholic Theology charts? He is a good communicator and has a VERY important message. Why not give him some time? I mean if ABC knows more about Chris West than Mark does that just seems all wrong.
Randy | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 3:25 pm | #

Sorry! I've only got 24 hours in a day! Besides, I already know and obey the Church's teaching on sex, so I figure I have other priorities.

Someday.....
Mark P. Shea | 05.13.09 - 3:29 pm | #

I think Westgate is, in part, so controversial because there is no real precedent for discussing the Church's teachings on sexuality so publically. In some old moral theology books from the early 20th century, for instance, the chapter on external sexual sins was written in Latin, though everything else was in English.
Alphonsus | 05.13.09 - 3:34 pm | #

Westgate ? The only Westgate I know would be Donald, author of, among other works, the various criminal adventures of one John Archibald Dortmunder. Hilarious, but hardly edifying- unless you take them as an extended version of the old adage, "Crime doesn't pay ". (My favorite is probably "Bank Shot"...)
Donna | 05.13.09 - 3:49 pm | #

Anyone who's interviewed by the MSM on the matter Mr West discusses has to know they MSM will misrepresent them. They can only do their best & hope for the best.

And anyone who's listened to Mr West will know that he's no fan of anyone who produces porn. Mr West calls viewing porn "dumpster diving" & guess where that puts Hef? I call that strong criticism.
Gene Branaman | 05.13.09 - 4:20 pm | #

I find that most the folks who are attacking West have never actually read him, watched, a video, or alternatively use contraception.
LCB | 05.13.09 - 4:41 pm | #

Mark, thanks so much for this post, which needed to be said. I wonder much the same thing...we are our own worst enemy, so quick to condemn each other. God forbid, even if the critics were right (I don't think they are), that anyone actually adopt a welcoming attitude towards someone who has the chutzpah to go on TV and do what the rest of the church should be doing all the time... In my lifetime, I had never heard a Catholic on national TV arguing against contraception until that interview. But of course, he will be knifed in the back by many who claim to be on his side. Again, even if his critics were right, many of their cries to crucify the guy, instead of correcting or guiding or lamenting, reveal their true motivation.
peeping thomist | 05.13.09 - 5:16 pm | #

Too many Catholics fell for the MSM propaganda. Hello brothers and sisters. the MSM is a lie machine that twists information to amuse and entertain their audience.

They spun Chris West's piece to fit their demographic of soulless kool-aid drinking zombies looking for tacit permission to have careless casual sex Sex SEX.

Don't forget teh old show biz adage: Any Press is Good Press

Chris suddeenly has more traffic, but it needs to be weeded through.
Jack | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 6:23 pm | #

we just finished a video series from him at our church.

Here's what I think is going on:
he's orthodox and doing great work, but he is not speaking to the choir. He is trying to speak to CONTRACEPTING CATHOLICS. When you're contracepting, your thinking is not on the same page as the Church.
If he were to be blunt and assume everyone to be on the same page, he will not succeed as well in a vital mission.

So... faithful Catholics with the gift of faith and blessing of thinking with the Church, need to take a deep breath, listen carefully, and give the guy a chance to lead others into what is very radical thinking by today's standards. It takes time, and it may not sound like preaching to the choir would, but it is essentially true, and in the end also good and beautiful.
kc | 05.13.09 - 8:13 pm | #

Donna:

Westlake.
Tom | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 9:05 pm | #

In some old moral theology books from the early 20th century, for instance, the chapter on external sexual sins was written in Latin, though everything else was in English.

And therein lies the point that Chris West was trying to make: that the extreme Puritannical culture will naturally give rise to the opposite extrme, as personified by the likes of Hugh Hefner and the so-called "Playboy philosophy."

That the sneering jerks in the MSM miss this is expected. It is somewhat more troubling when this point is lost on supposedly well-formed Catholics. Put Puritans are everywhere and are ever-ready to artfully miss the point, as we learned in the Harry Potter debates.

I once attended a day-long seminar given by Christopher West and even sat at his table for lunch. This seminar was attended by men and women, oldsters and high school-age children, and many priests, including our diocesan bishop, who gave opening remarks and the opening prayer. I learned more at that one-day seminar about Church teaching on sexuality than I had my whole life up to that point. Christopher West is doing God's work and people who criticize him don't know what they're talking about.
Sean P. Dailey | Homepage | 05.13.09 - 9:19 pm | #

Tom:
Sorry. The last time I read anything by him was several years ago.
Donna | 05.13.09 - 9:24 pm | #

Sean,

I had a similar experience. Since this whole nonsense broke I began examining my memory and discerning whether or not I was enchanted by CW's charisma or his message; I still maintain that it was his (actually JPII's) message.

I lived the college life. I had inappropriate relationships that I knew were wrong, but didn't take it too seriously because I couldn't even articulate my lifelong church's teaching on sex. I was ready to enter into my adult life and probably into a contracepting marriage.

Christopher West came to speak at CUA, where I was in graduate school. A friend recommended his talk, and, having no idea what it would even be about, I went. It absolutely changed my life. I gobbled up everything I could read about TOB, and never looked back.

Oddly enough, the first book I loaned to my now wife was West's Good News about Sex and Marriage.

She probably should have known then that I was crazy.
Andy | 05.13.09 - 9:30 pm | #

I wonder if any of the theologians who have criticised CW have ever spoken about sex to an audience of 18-30yo? It is one thing to pontificate using high theological language and it is quite another to engage the culture where they are at with the truths of the Church.
Kala | 05.13.09 - 9:42 pm | #

From Faux News

is there no end to this nonsense??

http://www.foxnews.com/story/ 0,2...,510947,00.html
Tim | 05.14.09 - 12:39 am | #

Why do we Catholics so often bayonet our own troops?

'cos it's fun?!
Louise | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 12:54 am | #

The biggest problem with this little snippet is that Mr. West implies that the Church - Christianity - denied the goodness of the human body, called it evil and sinful, etc., until JP-II came along. Hermeneutic of discontinuity?

Did he imply that or did he imply that the Church in the USA, because of its Puritanical, cultural roots "called it evil and sinful, etc., until JP-II came along"?
Louise | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 1:03 am | #

"Did he imply that or did he imply that the Church in the USA, because of its Puritanical, cultural roots 'called it evil and sinful, etc., until JP-II came along'?"

Either way, it's false.
Jeff Culbreath | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 1:07 am | #

O God, from whom are holy desires, right counsels and just deeds, give to your servants that peace which the world cannot give; that we may serve you with our whole hearts, and live quiet lives under your protection, free from the fear of our enemies. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Catholic Truth Society Prayerbook.
Martin | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 2:06 am | #

Actually, what I'd say is false is pretending that our culture hasn't been steeped in a mix of Gnostic / Protestant BS about the nature of human sexuality. The spirit being supposedly diametrically opposed to the flesh is a VERY common misconception in the common culture and Protestant churches I can tell you as someone who came from outside of the Catholic Church. It's pretty common for kids to rebel against this and think they've found some kind of enlightenment on their way to hell.

But, by all means, if American Catholics are largely immune to this kind of nonsense, feel free to tell West to take a hike. Myself, I find his talks most useful.
Jarnor | 05.14.09 - 2:55 am | #

False-hearted judges dying in the webs that they spin...

Blah Blah Blah...

BTW, these ARE the last days, and ALL the so-called "faithful" are in for a BIG surprise.
Mr. T | 05.14.09 - 5:07 am | #

+J.M.J+

Tim: As I said in the combox for the other Chris West thread, that FoxNews.com article annoyed me too when I read it a while back. Especially this quote from the article:

"And the fact is Pope John Paul said, since we were born naked, it is art, and it's just showing a beautiful body that God created."

That's not an exact quote and it's taken out of context. I think the late Pontiff had something more like the Sistine Chapel ceiling in mind, not a pinup or French Vogue. He also did not approve of pr*nogr*phy, which is what she's trying to condone by twisting his words.

Alphonsus writes:
>>>I think Westgate is, in part, so controversial because there is no real precedent for discussing the Church's teachings on sexuality so publically. In some old moral theology books from the early 20th century, for instance, the chapter on external sexual sins was written in Latin, though everything else was in English.

Quite true; I have a copy of the classic four volume Moral And Pastoral Theology by Henry Davis, S.J., printed in the 1940s or 50s. The chapter on specific sexual sins is indeed in Latin, while the rest of the book is in English.

In Jesu et Maria,
Rosemarie | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 8:53 am | #

"The chapter on specific sexual sins is indeed in Latin, while the rest of the book is in English.

Right. The rationale was "such things ought not even be mentioned among you; your holiness forbids it." Because lust by its very nature is able to feed off even the smallest suggestion. And where it may go from there can be hard to tell.

The saints were extremely careful about guarding not only their chastity, but also about holy modesty. Men saints and women, both varieties. Custody of the eyes; avoidance not only of conversation that might veer into the suggestive, but avoidance of frivolous conversation with members of the opposite sex, apart from those of the utmost briefness - a quick greeting without breaking stride, or the exchange of a few words about necessary business, and that is all.

I realize it sounds extreme. Those who must, go on and mock. Mock. It's OK. I understand. I would have mocked, too . . . back when I was younger. And dumber. Now that I'm older, and have heard and seen what I've lived to hear and see, I realize . . . they were right.

D*mn straight.

Those olden guys had it going on. Sometimes.

Am not criticizing Mr. West, by the way. Good man. Heart in right place. Good material. Good work.

We just have to be very careful, that's all. Unlike other sins and vices lust can be as treacherous, as hair-trigger reactive, as nitroglycerine.

~~~~
Marion (Mael Muire) | 05.14.09 - 9:34 am | #

The Catholic Church's position may always have been that the body is good, but those who serve the church weren't always spreading that message. It might serve West better if he said that it wasn't a religious blunder of Christianity, but of Christians, including many Catholics. It shouldn't be news that just because the Magisterium has taught something for 2,000 years doesn't mean all Catholics know it or understand it. American Catholics have been influenced by Puritanism in their attitude toward sex. And when American Catholics share those views, they are often taken as the views of the Church even though they're not.
Tony | 05.14.09 - 10:02 am | #

As much as I admire West's efforts to bring JPII's work to the public at large, his public speaking has become too much loaded with rhetoric and catchphrases. It couldn't but lead him into trouble in the soundbite-hungry MSM.
Augustine | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 11:23 am | #

As much as I respect Alice Von Hildebrand, she's orbiting on a different trajectory from the average person. I can understand the intellectuals clutching their pearls when they hear some of West's frank talk. But West is doing frontline work with couples who are bombarded with modern notions of sexuality. He's trying to bridge the gap between the average person and JP2's esoteric ideas about sexuality. (Try wading through Theology of the Body some time. The man was a saint, but a clear and concise writer he was not.) I've attended one of West's seminars, and he's doing good work.

I teach 14-year-olds who would seem like some kind of alien life form to Dr. von Hildebrand, and she to them. She would be utterly incapable of communicating a Catholic sense of sexuality to them, but they would get Christopher West.
T McDonald | 05.14.09 - 11:25 am | #

Sorry about the double post.
Augustine | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 11:31 am | #

"I have a copy of the classic four volume Moral And Pastoral Theology by Henry Davis, S.J., printed in the 1940s or 50s. The chapter on specific sexual sins is indeed in Latin, while the rest of the book is in English."

That's the exact work I had in mind.
Alphonsus | 05.14.09 - 1:27 pm | #

A lot of the criticism of Mr. West centers on his frankness in discussing sexual matters. But, probably a lot of the people who have a problem with that are not people who have been exposed to the kind of media and culture that most of my generation has been inundated with. For some of my friends who were homeschooled, and who did not watch television, and whose reading was carefully monitored by their parents, and who knew enough to stay away from those things when they went to college, Alice von Hildebrand's approach would be completely appropriate. I would not recommend that those people attend a Christoper West talk, because, indeed, his openness might cause problems for them.

Unfortunately, most of us do not have such innocent ears, or eyes. These days, there are many who have been exposed to pornography before they even get to college, and hear much more explicit things than Mr. West says in their high school "health" classes. Those are the people Christopher West is trying to reach. Dr. von Hildebrand's approach will not work for those people--the veil of mystery over sexuality has already been lifted, and there are issues that must be dealt with before that veil can be put back.

There is room in the Church for a plurality of approaches in presenting correct doctrine.
JaneC | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 3:55 pm | #

"Dr. von Hildebrand's approach will not work for those people-"

I am one of "those people", and it worked for me.
Jeff Culbreath | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 4:07 pm | #

>I am one of "those people", and it worked for me.

That's great! But it won't work for most people.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Dr. von Hildebrand has never stood in front of an audience of middle class American suburban Catholics (either adults or teens) with an hour in which to get across a remarkably complex and subtle piece of theology, doctrine, or dogma that is directly at odds with the way they live their lives in the 21st century. (Not college students. Not academics.) To do that, and have a "take away" that people can ponder in between work, bills, cell phones, iPods, texting, TV, picking up/dropping off kids, etc...that's what West and others are trying to do.

I'm not anti-intellectual: I believe we need people in ivory towers writing smart things. And they need people on the ground who can understand those smart things, and convey them to a broad audience living in a culture that is hostile to those ideas. Not everyone can turn away and retreat to a life of high-minded contemplation. You can't help someone reach a new level of understanding unless you meet them where they are. Right now, for many American Catholics, where they are is very far from the ideal.

West's Hugh Hefner bit on Nightline was an unfortunate example of him compressing one of his usual points (which takes at least 5 minutes to explain, and longer to develop) into a soundbite of a few seconds. He tested the limits of the medium, and it didn't work. You make mistakes like that all the time when you're catechizing to an audience, and you learn from them and adjust.
T McDonald | 05.14.09 - 5:12 pm | #

I am one of "those people", and it worked for me.

Um, no. You're not. You are a Traditionalist who lives and thinks in a vanishingly small bubble with radically different assumptions about the world compared to your average member of American consumer culture.
Mark P. Shea | 05.14.09 - 5:27 pm | #

Um, no. You're not.

Um, yes. I am. Here's what Jane describes as "those people":

"These days, there are many who have been exposed to pornography before they even get to college, and hear much more explicit things than Mr. West says in their high school 'health' classes.

That is precisely my own experience before my conversion, Mark. I wasn't "reached" by apologists who wallowed around in the muck with me to prove their relevance. I was reached by people like Dr. von Hildebrand whose Christian faith and conduct inspired my curiosity, respect, and ultimately, imitation.

I disagree with Jane, too, when she says "there are issues that must be dealt with before that veil {over sexuality} can be put back." The veil is not something we were ever at liberty to tinker with in the first place. When you've been running around drunk and naked for a while, and then you sober up, you don't take your sweet time putting your clothes back on. You get dressed first, then deal with mess you made.

I say let the unchaste, contracepting, fornicating public behold a teacher who demonstrates the kind of reverence for Christian marriage and sexuality they, too, ought to have.

CW's "relevant" style may get some in the door, but it doesn't reel them all the way in, and those who dwell too long in doorways often forget whether they are coming or going.
Jeff Culbreath | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 6:23 pm | #

CW's "relevant" style may get some in the door, but it doesn't reel them all the way in

Like you know. Your argument is predicated on the assumption that you know, for a fact, that CW's audiences are not living "fully" holy lives and that you are in a position to say that you are. Care to climb down from your judgment seat on all those poor benighted Catholics who have been reeled in all the way?
Mark P. Shea | 05.14.09 - 7:39 pm | #

"Your argument is predicated on the assumption that you know, for a fact, that CW's audiences are not living 'fully' holy lives ..."

That's bunk. They may all be saints. And if they are saints, they have moved beyond the snares of the TOB cult.

"... and that you are in a position to say that you are."

I am in a position to say I am NOT. I have never, ever claimed otherwise.
Jeff Culbreath | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 8:25 pm | #

"the TOB cult".

Way to avoid that judgmentalism. Sure glad you arent' vaunting your spiritual superiority.
Mark P. Shea | 05.14.09 - 8:39 pm | #

Way to avoid that judgmentalism. Sure glad you arent' vaunting your spiritual superiority.

Mark, grow up already. You can accuse me of just about any kind of sin you like - spiritual superiority complex included - and chances are good it's probably true.

Now that we've got that out of the way perhaps you can address the issues you've been avoiding.
Jeff Culbreath | Homepage | 05.14.09 - 9:04 pm | #

You mean the issues I avoided by linking to Jimmy Akin's post and the critique of West on Dawn Eden's site?
Mark P. Shea | 05.14.09 - 9:08 pm | #

Jeff:

Randy Engel spoke on many of the issues you had with TOB in your blog.
She offers a free MP3 via a dedicated email address.

rvte61@comcast.net

Powerful stuff
Tim | 05.15.09 - 9:03 am | #

Mark,
Thanks for writing this. Christopher West uses references to pop-culture to illustrate a point. Just as every communicator has used common things or situations to illustrate a point. His reference to Hefner is actually a very beautiful telling of the depth of how lost we are as a culture and a great way to make the point that we all are looking for the "love that satisfies" which can only be found in God. Those who wish to "bayonet" West are doing more damage than he did by being on Nighline - in fact they are the ones who are turning people off to the message. No one wants to listen to squabbling - we all have our different approaches. His is working - and it is bringing people back to the truth.

Chris Faddis
Chris Faddis | Homepage | 05.15.09 - 10:45 am | #

Von Hildebrand's style worked for me too, Mark.

Speaking of judgmentalism, I get the distinct impression that unless everyone falls down in deep worship of TOB, Popcak et al. that they're seen as some sort of Pharisee gleefully condemning people to hell.

In case you're wondering, Mark, this is a main reason why folks say you're anti-traditionalist: You seem to value anything done post Vatican II more highly than works undertaken by canonized saints in the pre-V2 era.

It's more than reasonable to state that TOB via West has serious problems, and that it's imprudent to use such a style in an already-sex-drenched culture.

The vast majority of canonized saints had much, much more strict ideas on sex and fraternization amongst the opposite genders than most modern-day Catholic theologians.

Do you really have a problem with those of us who look askance at TOB as being less than ideal (to put it charitably) for transmission of Catholic values of chastity?
orthros | 05.16.09 - 11:41 am | #

Orthros:

Your theory would work great if I hadn't linked to two separate critiques of West. Neither Jimmy Akin nor the guy on Dawn's blog "fall down in worship". What they *do* do however, is refrain from calling West and Popcak "perverts" or from suggesting that people who find their work useful are "cultists".

I said not one thing about pre-Vatican II saints. Not one thing. What I did was defend honorable members of the body of Christ from scurrilous slanders. If manufacturing and spreading such slander is representative of what alleged traditionalist think the saints would be proud of, I suggest they are misreading the saints, which is an odd way of honoring them.
Mark P. Shea | 05.16.09 - 3:25 pm | #

Criticism is not a witch hunt. AVH's comments were reasonable. West' presentation could use some tightening. He should be grateful for the attention, since he does appear to flourish in the limelight. As do all good speakers.
joe | 05.19.09 - 1:07 am | #

"I can understand the intellectuals clutching their pearls when they hear some of West's frank talk. "

Unfair and over the top. You don't have to be a brainiac to understand moral theology, or find a dump of pop culture talk sounding youth group-esque when aimed at adults. This sort of thinking is what often is used to justify dumbing down the liturgy as well, and it is debatable. JPII was a roundabout writer, sure, but Oprah-style seminar leaders can still resist the need to casualize everything.
joe | 05.19.09 - 1:17 am | #

Labeling West and Popcak "perverts" is a witch hunt.
Mark P. Shea | 05.19.09 - 1:52 am | #

I'm not a traditionalist in any sense, but as a 21 year old black African female Catholic, it's heterodoxy that I've seen you spew, Mark Shea, along with Christopher West, which has motivated my active search in the Orthodox Church and currently in non western Catholic Churches which are in full communion with Rome, for a new place to call home.

As unchristian as this sounds, hopefully with the decline of the European population (due to contraception and abortion), the erroneous ideas of the last 50 or so years which emanates almost exclusively from European Catholics will die a final death.

Until then, I'm off to find me a home amongst Catholics who don't worship at the feet of clearly erroneous theologians in lieu of remaining faithful to all that the authentic Church teaches.

Keep doing what you're doing, Mark. As the Church continues to decline ever more so with the rise of ear tingling heterodoxy, I'm sure you'll be comforted by the sight of empty pews whilst the orthodoxy in Africa and China paves the way to martyrdom and uncompromising faith amongst the GROWING number of faithful.

Chal!
Sarah | 07.05.09 - 3:28 am | #

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